Brief Interviews With Childfree Men
I like to think that there are a fair amount of things about me that are notable. My refusal to wear socks until it snows. My obsessive love of cleaning out the lint trap and making tiny lists. One thing people tend to hang onto, though, as soon as they learn it about me, is that I don’t want to have kids.
It’s pretty rare, apparently, for people I know to come upon a woman who doesn’t want kids, and especially rare for that woman to talk openly about not wanting them, even though for about five minutes, it seemed like everyone was writing about the strangeness of the woman creature who did not desire to have children .
Do men who don’t want to have kids have the same social experience? Do they get the same responses if/when they talk about it? I found six childfree men who wanted to talk about this with me.
***
“Why not?”
J, 32, Software Developer: I don’t like kids! I can’t remember a time where I ever really actively wanted kids, though I’m sure everyone who doesn’t want kids had a phase at some point where they assumed they’d have them, because it’s just how things work. I can’t relate to someone who can’t communicate in full sentences.
Dan, 31, Non-profit and music professional:
I feel like I am leading a very full and fulfilling life, so I don’t know that there’s a “hole to fill” so to speak.
Drew, 38, Bank Auditor: There are so many layers to this. My own pessimistic outlook. Economics. The apparent misery of some of my friends who are parents. And a general aversion I have to any decision I can’t unmake.
Benjamin, 31, Theatrical Designer: I am not particularly confident in the direction that our world is taking and I’m not sure I would want to watch the next generation grow up with so much invested in an individual who is inheriting that world. I don’t think I can give a child the kind of life that my parents gave me and therefore I am motivated to not even try. There’s also the very good reason that I don’t actually like children. I find them frustrating because I can’t have a conversation with them.
Michael, 32, Grad Student: I feel that I have enough insight into my own functioning as a human to know that the sacrifice of “giving yourself” to another human being is not one that I want to make. I understand that throughout the child’s life, that dynamic could change, but it’s something that gives me pause.
T, 44, Grad Student: It is as if the desire for kids was never there.
Me: My own reasons are complicated, but simple. I want space and time and energy to write and travel. I don’t like caretaking, I have no desire to ever fill that role. And I don’t like kids, I don’t like the chaos or the unpredictability or the demands. It’s hard to admit that you don’t like kids, and I was really surprised that these men were able and willing to do so so quickly and unabashedly.
“Really?” (Also known as “Pushback”)
J:
I’ve rarely gotten real pushback. The worst case is usually either people joking with me about it all the time: “Hey, there’s a baby! You want to say hi to the baby?”
Dan: There are definitely people who don’t entirely believe me, but they mostly keep it to themselves…I don’t have to justify being not interested in having kids if it’s just said out of nowhere…whereas if I mention that I’ve worked with kids often, or if people see how I act around kids, they’re disappointed to find out I don’t want any of my own.
Ben: When people attempt to have the “but you have to have a kid or it’ll be too late” conversation with me, I very calmly explain to them that I’ll not be making that life choice.. Those who have children and are older by a decade or so (and who are interested in having the discussion) mostly seem as though they are trying to convince me to have children. Those who are younger by a decade or more seem to pity me (as I must admit I did at a time in my life that I was confronted with a similar situation.)
Michael : As a man, I can honestly say I have not felt pressured to have kids, but frequently field questions about it. When I tell people I don’t want kids, the comment is well received once I explain why. I have received positive feedback on the reasons why I don’t want to have kids, even from people who have kids.
Me : Yes, I mean never. I never want to be a parent, and the reasons for that are complicated, but I’m sure.
“Don’t you think that’s selfish?”
T:
The only people who have ever been truly puzzled by my decision not to have kids are my younger female students (some of whom have already had kids by the age of 19 or 20). They didn’t say I was selfish, they just didn’t understand how I could not want kids.
Michael: Is the decision selfish? Yes. Sometimes, we have to do what’s best for us and our lives at the risk of sounding selfish. I think it’s important to have a child for the right reasons. Not to fulfill an expectation you’ve placed on yourself, or to fix a broken relationship. It’s family planning in the purest form, and that planning can sometimes come in the form of not planning at all.
Dan: I don’t think other people necessarily think of it as selfish. I also view selfishness as something that everyone has and most people made decisions with, but not everyone acknowledges it. There are plenty of ways for people to be selfish that involve having kids
I’m just happy to own up to the fact that selfishness (and interest in not being restrained in my pursuits) is the primary reason for not wanting kids.
Me: I’m just going to say it — there are different definitions of what constitutes selfish for male and female folks. Women are selfish when we don’t put things ahead of ourselves because that’s what women are supposed to do and who we’re supposed to be. I think women are fearful of being called selfish, and it’s interesting to me that these men seemed to not be nervous about owning the word and using it to describe their decision.
“Aren’t you worried about missing out? You should just do and then you’ll understand.”
Drew: I’m sure going to war broadens the mind as well. It has certainly made some great people and great works of art. But I think I’ll pass. This “you’ll understand when you have your own” idea is code for “once I had one, the idea that it was a bad move became literally unthinkable.”
Dan : Our culture has this idea that because we have the internet and technology and airplanes, that everyone has the right to experience everything. Everyone is going to miss out on things…and it’s not so much missing out as much as living and experiencing different things.
Ben: Maybe the payoff would be great and it would surely be incomprehensible, but it could go either way and I don’t feel like there’s a lot of middle ground. I view it as a business proposition: the cost outweighs the payoff. I’m not interested in making that 18-year commitment in order to feel deeper emotions.
Me: Women spend a lot of our lives responding to expectations, even if we’re not actually interested in doing what’s expected of us. When I realized that having kids was a choice, and that it was a choice I didn’t want, I didn’t look back.
“Real men want to make more of themselves! Spread your seed!”
Ben: I think that’s a social construct, though, personally, not an ingrained species-specific thing. I have never felt that urge and I have never felt less masculine because of it. I’ll tell you one thing, though: no one ever asks me if I’ve told my wife that we’re not having children yet and that seems to be the reaction of younger folks when my wife tells them she is committed to being childfree.
Michael : For straight men (and apologies for the sweeping generalizations) it’s different. I think if a man in an opposite-sex relationship/marriage may hide the fact that he does not want kids, and he may feel that people could interpret or suspect he is sterile, or even possibly gay. I have heard this from a number of people and in discussions about sex and gender roles in school.
Me : If I wake up in a cold sweat one day with my ovaries knocking or whatever happens, I still won’t want to parent. This is still a choice.
***
After my incredibly un-scientific survey of childfree men, it does seem like both these dudes and I share some common experiences: the skepticism, the accusation of selfishness, the assertion that “if you just do it, you’ll understand.” Similarities are always good, I think, especially when it seems like you’re the only one.
Here’s the difference: While my reasons for not wanting kids are exactly the same as those articulated by the men here, my experience of talking about these reasons are very different. If a woman doesn’t want kids, on the other hand, there must be something wrong with her–biologically, emotionally, etc.–and so it’s become an outstanding thing about me, not just one thing that I happen to not want. The whole way I’m constructing my life as a woman is contrary. When I talk to (some) other women about not wanting children, they’re often not only in disbelief at my choice, but also talk about feeling threatened. I understand why, especially if you’re already a parent. Men are socialized to see children as an obstacle, a liability, and to see parenting as an option, even when and if they are actually parents. Children and caretaking are not supposed to be their universe. They have other lives.
I think Ben cinched it when he said, “No one ever asks me if I’ve told my wife that we’re not having children yet and that seems to be the reaction of younger folks when my wife tells them she is committed to being childfree.”
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About Author
by Chanel Dubofsky
Chanel Dubofsky's writing has been published at Cosmopolitan, The Frisky, The Billfold and others. She is interested in your personal choices .
Great article, great insight!!!
Hey, this is great! I like that we're not viewing "selfish" as a dirty word here–I personally think it would do much more harm than good to have a child if you felt that you'd be giving too much of yourself to someone else.
I think it's actually very clear-eyed and compassionate to not have a child you know you don't want and aren't prepared to sacrifice your lifestyle for.
I'm not saying parents have to lose themselves or be entirely subjugated to their child's needs, but there's definitely *some* amount of unavoidable change…
If you can't primarily consider your own needs and desires in making a decision that may determine the entire course of your future, when can you consider them? Not to say that selflessness is a bad thing in general, but to have children because of some imagined duty to… the species? the hypothetical child? in spite of your own disinterest strikes me as an unhealthy level of self-abnegation.
I totally agree with this and while I don't think not having kids/having kids is selfish if they are, then they'd both be either equally selfish or equally unselfish. I mean, just taking the dictionary definition of the word selfish: " lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure". Most people, ultimately have kids because they want them, which has to do with the personal pleasure you would get from having kids.
Even the reasons most people give (do you want to end up alone? don't you worry about missing that experience?) are concerned with the benefit kids would give to your life. In the same way, not having kids ultimately boils down to not having them because you don't want them, which is just as related to one's personal pleasure.
It's just so weird to me that people would try and judge others for a decision that doesn't affect anyone outside of you and the person you're having/not having kids with. Especially since the nice thing about kids is they don't exist until you have them. It's not like raising dolphins, where you would presumably take responsibility for already existing dolphins. With kids, unless you are adopting, they literally don't exist until you have them so if you don't want them your choice doesn't affect real living children. And if you do want them, you probably want them enough to take responsibility for them so it all works out.
Well said. Also, we all make "selfish" decisions about the quality of life we want, whether it's where we live, what kind of work we do, or how we spend our money. Kids are just one of many personal decisions.
Exactly! Having or not having kids is no more selfish than choosing to quit your job as an accountant to become an admin assistant. Or to move from Chicago to Philly. Or any other personal choice anyone makes.
I really don't understand why people would try to argue someone into having a child, if they've said they don't want to. Who would be a worse parent than someone who doesn't want to be one? Especially if you're a parent you should know how much bloody work it takes and how much you have to want to be doing it!
Also I didn't really understand why other women said they were threatened by her choice? It seems kind of illogical like how some straight people say they're threatened by gay marriage and it's like, "but it has literally no impact on your life?"
hahaha, the gay marriage debate in my post-nuclear childhood home. *_*
I have a suspicion that it's sometimes (often?) a case of the asker feeling like the childfree askee is getting away with something by not having children (doubly so if you're a woman), and feels a need to take them down a peg. I agree, though — it makes no sense at all.
Seems to me that feeling "threatened" is actually just feeling "jealous." As in, women who have kids talk to me. I say I do not want kids. They are reminded of how different (and possibly better) their lives would be. They are jealous of my money and my free time and my quiet, perhaps. This leads to insecurity, AKA, I have threatened their constructed world by living in one so radically different and better.
I have to add that of course having kids or not having kids are both great choices. I think if women who felt threatened actually sat down and thought about it for a second, they would remember all of the wonderful things their children bring to their lives. It just seems like being threatened is a knee-jerk reaction and so the immediate response has to do with negativity.
They've constructed that life in a way that, as Drew says in the interview, they cannot allow themselves to think there's a possibility of happiness without kids (because otherwise, what are they doing all this for?), so when someone chooses not to have them, they're threatening that premise. It's absurd, but I've seen it a lot over the years, most prominently from my own sister.
This is kind of a revelation to me, and now I think I understand a bit better why people seem to get so upset and threatened by any "unconventional" life choices I make that have literally no impact on them.
I agree, but they do (I know because I've been childfree since I was in high school. I think that one reason people get so offended (in addition to the others pointed out above) is that they see the choice to forego children as some sort of direct attack or judgment on THEIR choice. My husband is a vegetarian and it used to happen to him. He would be at a restaurant and tell people he was a vegetarian and they would snap back, "what's wrong with meat?!!!" And then he got "bingo'd" with dumb questions for an hour about the topic. This happens less now, as vegetarianism is more widely accepted and just more common in the U.S. But 20 years ago, it was not so common.
My brother had kind of a surprise baby (ex-girlfriend was pregnant and didn't tell anyone until the baby was born) and when that happened we all realized that nobody had any idea if having kids had ever been on his radar. Nobody had ever asked, or even thought to. Meanwhile, my sister and I had been interrogated time and again about if/when we would have kids.
This has also been my experience as the designated Butch Gay Cousin. No-one has ever even asked.
…. Although my aunt did once say "*sob* I have to make it to your cousin's wedding! It's my last chance, YOU'RE never getting hitched!" so you know, there are good and bad ways of expressing that absolute assumption.
My sister and her husband are visiting with their baby right now and it's the first real experience I've ever had with children. She's cute and all, but it is a LOT OF WORK and has changed their lives in a real way. And it's only been a few months! I'm personally undecided about having kids — I could be equally happy having some or not, I think — but man, I totally understand why it is not for everyone. I really wonder at the people who say "just try it and then you'll see!" as if creating a human life and then giving up a lot of yours to take care of it for the next 18+ years is the same as, like, trying eggplant to see if you like it.
Right? The cost of going "Welp, turns out I was right and shouldn't have done this." is just too high.
Yes, exactly! "It's different when it's your kids!" Okay…but what if it turns out not to be? It's too late by then to change my mind.
That was one of the main factors why my ex is my ex. I've never wanted them, he did, and he absolutely could not accept that for some people it's *not* different when it's your own. It might have been for me, but the cost to everyone concerned if it's not was just far too high for me to take that risk.
I do have a friend who was brave enough to tell me about her story – she was pressured into having one, it wasn't different, and she ended up leaving her husband and child and it was hideous for all of them. I have another friend who had one, had horrendous PND, was too low to say no to more and ended up having three in quick succession. She said until the youngest was about 8, she was miserable for the entire time.
Hoo boy, I hear you on exes Not Getting It when you say you don't want children, yet they want to prove to you by any means necessary that *of course* you'll change your mind! Thank goodness I was reasonably quick to realise if he won't respect your opinions on something as huge as bringing another human being into the world, there's likely whole rafts of other opinions of yours he'll spend a lot of time casually shooting down.
Oh yes! With hindsight, his default mindset was that people would *obviously* agree with him if they understood what he was saying. He was a lovely man in many many ways and we were very happy together for a long time, but he had massive trouble with the idea that people could be just as informed and have access to all the same data but still come to a different conclusion.
Which tended to lead him to think that if you disagreed with him, you were either a bit dim or ill-informed and if he could just explain to you what he meant, you would of course come round to his way of thinking. I spent a lot of time saying 'I understand, I just disagree', but I'm glad I don't *have* to stand up for myself intellectually any more, because it does make you doubt yourself.
My mom's mom was not a kid person — she wasn't a very hands-on mother, and by all accounts was not really into any children, including her own mostly. Had she lived until I was an adult I'm sure she would be fascinating and we would have a lot to talk about, but she died when I was 8 and I don't have any fond memories of her. I'm not sure if she ever wanted kids or not — I'm not sure if women of that generation were really ever able to make that choice. But it sure didn't seem like she was that happy with kids, and everyone knew it, and that doesn't seem like a great way to grow up.
Definitely true of my grandmother as well, and I know that was part of why my mother's childhood was very unhappy.
That's basically my grandma, too. She had no problem telling her daughters that if she could do her life over again, she wouldn't have kids. Obviously, she was not a stellar parent.
So now y'all care what us straight dudes think?? I'm just trying to find a badass woman companion, it's up to her whether or not she wants to use my seed for reproduction. If so, I bet I'd be a good dad. If not, travelling the world into old age should be fun.
I ended up having to explain it as "I can barely take care of myself, how do you expect me to be responsible for another human being," for my family to understand and stop asking.
The flipside to that is once you can take care of yourself they will expect you to have one just because you are capable of doing so, regardless of whether or not you have any biological desire to have one. It's like some people don't get that just because you're responsible and capable of effectively managing your own life and the lives of others doesn't mean a child wants to be raised by someone who didn't want them and only had them because random strangers pushed them to.
There is that. However, I'm hoping they will have forgotten about my child-bearing capabilities by the time I am able to take care of myself, and surround myself with cats, and call them my children, taking out pictures of them at family gatherings when my sister is showing off her child and comparing.
"Yes, I do see that your kid's doing quite well in school. However, please watch this video of Mr. Moggins jumping to the top of the fridge in one go. I'm so proud."
You forgot the "but aren't you scared of DYING ALONE?" argument. As an unmarried only child, I love that one.
Ugh I hate that one. It's like some people think that having kids means that you also have to drop all your friends and kill all your relatives and set your pets loose in the streets and just lock yourself in a closet forever. I may not be having kids but that doesn't mean I wont have a family.
I plan to hire a companion, in the style of Miss Marple.
Oh, yes, I love that one. Because surely nobody knows anyone with kids who a) don't speak to their parents b) died before their parents c) have a chronic condition or disability that will require lifelong care d) are unable or unwilling to take care of their parents in old age. It's just a shaky assumption.
Yep, yep, yep! I'm a single late-30something, and my mom just said something to me this Christmas about how I should think about adopting a child. So a) she's pretty much given up on me finding a spouse and "giving her grandchildren" biologically, and b) she thinks, in lieu of a life partner, I better get busy being a single parent of a child so I at least have somebody in my life! Ugh.
My best friend and I have made old-foks-home plans together already, just so we have answers to this one. Also, we're gonna RUN that home like no one's business.
I don't know, personally I feel that one. Obviously I would never use that (or anything else) to try and convince someone to have kids, but it is a logistical problem that needs to be answered. I don't really know if I want kids yet, but as I look at my mom and uncles caring for my senile grandpa, it kind of seems like a good investment. On one hand not having kids will save you a ton of money that can be put towards your care, but on the other, that might not help if you get past the point of being able to make good decisions for yourself.
I've thought about that to and I figure, any money I wont put towards kids will be set aside to get me into a nice retirement home, and to pay for the writing of some sort of pre-will that dictates what decisions I want made for me if I become senile or unable to function in the way that I desire.
I want the pre-will anyway – who says my kids will have good judgment? I mean, I'll try my best, but in the end kids just end up being how they are.
I've also noticed that, as my parents have started to spend a lot of time taking care of their parents. I don't want kids ever ever ever so I just plan to train my menagerie of delightful animals to take care of me when I'm old.
I've thought about this, too, as both my parents and my childless aunt approach the age where we're all considering how this will work. It sounds like kids-as-retirement fund is a pretty sketchy investment. Apparently the chances of having a child care for you in your old age tops out at 75%, and that's only if you have three or more daughters! If you have fewer daughters your chances drop, and if you just have sons you're pretty much hooped.
I would never ever ever recommend kids-as-retirement! That's obviously a terrible gamble. But I think your chances of "kids who care about you enough to make sure you go to your doctor appointments and when the time comes, pick out a nice retirement home and move you in" is going to be considerably higher than that.
I resemble that remark.
The answer to that one is "everyone dies alone," meaning that we don't exactly drag someone else into the Great Beyond with us when we go. (At least most people don't, although many try.)
Ooooh, also for the only children: you're a horrible person for not giving your parents grandchildren. That is my favorite.
I really really don't understand the 'selfishness' argument. It is no more selfish to not have kids when you don't want to than it is to have kids when you DO want to.
People should be able to order their lives as they want.
Of course I am coming at this from a perspective of really wanting to have kids and realizing that acting on this desire would be very selfish and irresponsible of me.
I'm gonna try to have a bunch of babies for the tax breaks and gov'mnt handouts.
good luck with that ;)
ETA: I know, you were joking, but for reals you pretty much have to already be in the grindingest of poverty and then add way too many kids to that, to be given not-enough-to-survive-on. Fake children would probably work better ;)
Definitely know that that's NOT how it works. BUT ALSO in a few years they can do all my chores for me, I'll make my own personal work force. (Getting dangerously close to actual horrible parents I've observed.)
Pshaw, they LOVE cleaning the floor and feeding the dog and throwing away trash (at least as toddlers).
Hey, but seriously, I was just reading about your completely justified grudge in the open thread from a few days ago and I'm SHOCKED. I think I'm a fair judge of what is and isn't a big deal. He should know the severity of that incident, apologize, and make amends–maybe he's oblivious or thought it has blown over (benefit of strong doubt). But I also can't fathom someone treating their pregnant wife that way in the first place. Sorry to jump threads and rehash that issue. These are my opinions in a matter that I've never been close to experiencing.
Mallory and I literally gchatted about it over the holidays because we spend time thinking about the relationship problems of our readership.
I love you.
thanks dude! It should be noted that probably everyone has done at least one shitty thing in their life. and you guys only heard about that one thing and not all of the other things, or any of the shitty things I've done. but still, thank you :)
True, guilty of shittiness as well. I'm also thinking about the classic argument: "that was so long ago, you're just now bringing that up?", but it's kind-of weak because some wounds take that long to heal or leave a scar–so to say. But, to gender stereotype, I think we men need to be told/shown what is not acceptable right away or we will never be the wiser–sad as that is–we are dogs. What is obviously completely fucked up to some (ahem), might be justified to others.
Please observe: baby mop
<img src=" http://blogs.babble.com/family-style/files/2011/03/BabyMop2.jpg"> ;
Will baby not then attempt to eat dusty mop-parts, as it seems they do with everything within range?
I don't understand the selfishness thing either, for similar reasons. Beyond that, my primary child-acquiring tactic, if I ever wanted to acquire one, would be adoption. Thinking about all the parent-less children makes having your own seem a bit selfish, wanting specifically to see *your* DNA in action in the next generation. I don't actually feel like having your own children is selfish, this is purely a logical observation for me and it usually only occurs to me when people start throwing around "childfree is selfish" accusations.
I do not agree with this argument . . . but I suspect that the "selfishness" argument is partly based on the Idiocracy scenario.
Yeah… and from certain people, it comes with some pretty strong classist/racist undertones. Or sometimes just plain tones.
What do you think people even think they mean when they say childlessness is "selfish?" In every scenario I can think of when I can say "okay, that person in the scenario is being selfish," there's someone who is hurt by the selfishness. But who is hurt by childlessness?
I mean, it's obviously a wrong thing to say, but even beyond that, what could it possibly sensibly mean?
This is so fantastic, thank you. As a childfree lady who married a childfree man, I am always surprised by how little pushback I get. In the four years we have been together people have asked if/when we plan to have kids, but the only person who hasn't taken our nope and moved on is my Grandmother. I don't know how I'd react to any of these questions – who even asks them? ! I must be the luckiest person of all time.
Lots of people ask them! I've been getting crap about not wanting kids since late elementary school, just because I wasn't enthusiastic about other people's babies. It's super weird and intrusive and I don't know why people ask these questions but I get them all the time. Not from friends (at least not from current friends, when I was younger I sometimes got it from friends) but from relatives and strangers who suddenly need to know all about my plans for my uterus so they can judge them. It's very strange.
that is just unthinkable. I must have so much bitch face no one even talks to me. I think I'll take it.
Sometimes I combine my resting bitchface with "I hate kids" when people ask. They're so shocked that they just step back and shut up. Harsh, but effective.
It's straight to the point. I love it.
I've said "I'm allergic to children" pretty frequently. They at least laugh through their shock.
No, seriously, my throat closes up, and usually I convulse. My parents had to homeschool me and send my brother to live with Grandma and Grandpa until he was fifteen. I've never been to an amusement park, or zoo. I can't even watch Home Alone without getting all blotchy. My career options are pretty much limited to working from home or taking a job in an adult bookstore. I had to dump a really nice guy once because he was a pediatrician.
Thanks for this, I always like reading about those who choose to live child-free lives. It's not surprising that men get less grief about their choices in this area. I especially loved this:
This “you’ll understand when you have your own” idea is code for “once I had one, the idea that it was a bad move became literally unthinkable.”
I wasn't sure what to think about that line! It seems like you could read it as, "These dumb parents are lying to themselves in order not to admit they made a Huge Mistake," which is obnoxious. Am I reading it uncharitably? (Caveat that, of course the "you'll understand" argument is in itself, obnoxious. Like all others here, I don't understand why people try to argue other people into having kids. Do your own thing, who cares.)
I read it mainly as expressing the irreversible nature of becoming a parent. Once you have a kid both the emotional bond of parent to child and the larger discussion of parenthood as whole makes the idea that having your kid was a mistake "literally unthinkable." I don't think it means parents are dumb. I just think that once you're a parent and have this being you love so much in your life, it's impossible to imagine/express regret over that choice. But to me, that's even more reason to be pragmatic about that decision. The fact that I would love a child after I had it doesn't mean having a kid is necessarily the right choice for me.
Is that true though? I would guess that there's lots of regret going on during 4am poopy diaper changings, even if the feeling doesn't last.
But even if you have the regret, you probably censor it pretty quickly and/or don't express it to others, because it is so fiercely taboo socially (and because you probably entertain the contradictory sentiments of love and repulsion/regret).
When I was going through the 'do I stay with the love of my life and hope like hell my own are different or is this the end of the relationship that I thought was going to last forever' agony, enough mothers confided in me that it wasn't different for them and they wished they hadn't done it, to show me that it's a hell of a lot more common than we might think.
There was a thing in Stumbling Upon Happiness (or whatever the hell it was called) about this. Parents are more unhappy by literally every measurable measure – like, they're more stressed, get less sleep, feel less satisfaction about their lives – but they SAY they're happier because of their kids and they believe what they say, because when you've made an irrevocable decision the only thing to do is embrace it wholly. So essentially, yes, your parent-brain will totally trick you into thinking you're happier with kids because it needs you to believe it. And then it becomes true! Because you believe it. The brain is weird and amazing.
That is a nicer way to read it, and you're probably right. I would say it's not particularly accurate, though. In the first weeks of my daughter's life, when I was hormonal and sleep-deprived, the question of whether I'd made a huge mistake was certainly not unthinkable. That's over now, but there's a reason having a baby is an adjustment.
I think when people pull out the "you'll understand when you have your own" line, it isn't just a defensive thing, or a failure of imagination. Maybe not for everyone, but for me there certainly is an "Oh, I get why people do this" to having my own child that I wouldn't have necessarily felt beforehand. People who say that are probably trying to convey that feeling. Now, if they're doing it in order to judge someone else's choices or talk them into having kids, that's inexcusable. But as an explanation for why having kids is rewarding, I think it flies.
Yeah, but "you'll understand once you have your own" is something people say when told "I don't want to have children." It's not really the same thing as being asked why they became a parent, and what they like and don't like about it, and sharing how it changed them.
In my experience, the people who try to use this argument to convince you to have children are entirely due that level of disdain. They're pushy assholes who get upset that your choices don't match their own.
You guys, I think I made a horrible child-related faux pas. My boyfriend (new new, a whole month kind of new) explained why his parents were so happy to meet me: because they care about him and his life and… because his mom wants grandchildren but my boyfriend's brother and his wife don't want to have children. So I mentioned that I don't want to have my own children. (For a lot of reasons, but mostly really bad depression and not wanting to take any risk, however small, of passing that on, so this is really really important to me.) I tried to be brief while conveying the force of my position, but it was awkward and I didn't do it very well or say that I'm not opposed to other child gaining methods, like adoption, but that my concern is primarily passing on my DNA and, secondarily, pregnancy (which doesn't go well with the pills I take). Usually, this is something I don't hesitate to talk about, so it seems weird to artificially hold it back from someone I'm intentionally getting to know. But I also know that people usually don't talk about this with their boyfriends so soon because of the awkward pressure of assuming its relevance which implies assumption of a long term commitment, even though it is entirely possible to conversationally agree that no one is making that assumption. Later, he said he wasn't ready for that kind of conversation, which is fair, and that he doesn't know if that would be a deal breaker for him. On one hand, I want to ignore this for the time-being and pretend it never happened, but on the other had I want to fully explain my position and lay it out because I don't want to end up getting extremely attached to him only to break up over this. But in order to lay it out, he has to understand the full extent of my depression so that he can understand how high the stakes are for me, but I am trying to explain that to him slowly because it is a sad thing that makes him sad for me about and I don't want to blast him with sadness.
Ahhh! I messed up! Have I destroyed the Earth and everything on it? Do I need to just chill out, pretend nothing happened, wait until much later to take up this thread again, and risk breaking a stronger attachment? I am bad at dating!
Take this with a grain of salt, because I'm not super-experienced with dudes, BUT it seems like a good start would be to say that *you* weren't ready to have that conversation either and so you feel like maybe the entire message didn't really get through and this part "I'm not opposed to other child gaining methods, like adoption, but that my concern is primarily passing on my DNA and, secondarily, pregnancy" so it's not like you're saying no kids ever never ever, and that's kind of as deep as you feel you need to go into it at this stage of the relationship, and, you know, deeper convos can be had later if there is a later.
But… HE brought it up. It's his faux-pas to put you in that conversational situation, not your faux-pas to have responded to him. For real.
And: if you are dating, it is totally okay to have conversations, and to have subsequent conversations to clarify things. He's not some fragile glass flower — and if he is, then that's pretty unattractive/something *he* should work on, you know? Definitely not your fault, not even your faux-pas.
Thanks for your suggestions. I feel better that I haven't destroyed the Earth with my lack of social skills. I'm still not sure how I'll handle this, but now I don't just have an echo chamber while I ponder.
This has been one of my biggest fears in every new relationship! I totally understand your anxiety and am happy you brought it up so I could also benefit from the advice.
Wellll, my husband and I didn't discuss kids until the day before we got married, and we both made the shocking discovery that I have no desire for biological children (never, ever want to be pregant/give birth) and he deeply desires being a dad someday, to his biological kids, so at least your foax pas wasn't THAT big :) He suggested that I try therapy to deal with my not wanting kids. I laughed. He cried. We'll deal with this later.
What does it mean to a mother to learn that none of her children want to be parents?
This is only tangentially related, but I just got home from four days of visiting my mother-in-law. I am pretty sure that she has accepted that Mr. Blazes and I will be remaining childfree. In fact, all three of my MIL's children have remained childfree by choice.
I found myself ruminating on what this might say about my in-laws' childhoods, their Catholic upbringing, their repeatedly broken home, their frequent moves… In short, did the childhood they experienced directly influence their decision not to have children?
I guess I just want to delve deeper into the psychology of WHY an individual chooses to be childfree. How much of that desire is nature, and how much nurture?
I don't have the guts to ask my MIL if she blames herself for her lack of grandchildren… but I really wonder.
It is kind of an interesting question, but the way you've framed it here makes it sound a bit like it's a weird aberration in need of some kind of deep-rooted explanation, which I doubt is what you intended. For many people, it's really not that complicated or freighted; no odder or more related to one's upbringing than, say, choosing a different profession from your parents.
I think you're looking to much at their difficult childhoods and assuming that has a connection on why they chose not to have grandchildren. It could have an impact, but like anon210 says it's not likely to have any more of an impact than on their professional choices or any other life decision.
If you'd like an alternative perspective, I wont be having kids. My parents have a wonderful marriage, get along spectacularly, never fight, resolve all (minor) arguments calmly and healthily, and are still together and have been since they were in their twenties. They have two children, my sister and I and they raised us very well, and were wonderful loving, kind and understanding parents. I feel like they raised me well, and gave me a lot of opportunities and taught me how to be a good person, and were great role models of wonderful people. My sister and I have a wonderful relationship, and I also have a great close relationship with many members of my extended family and their children.
I don't want kids. I don't want kids because even though I couldn't have asked for a better childhood I have zero biological desire for children. Logically I understand why others have them and the joy they can bring (and the joy my sister and I brought my parents) but for myself, I don't have that feeling in me even though I can mentally appreciate the concept of children from a distance (for ex, while observing my cousins parent their wonderful children).
My upbringing had about as much influence on my lack of desire for a child as it did on the fact that I like pop music and am lactose intolerant (aka, zero influence, these are just things that happened that I cannot control). The only area where it might come into play is because my parents were good parents I don't feel like I have to force myself to have an unwanted child because I was raised to believe I can make my own choices in life even if it's not the norm.
I don't think that not wanting kids is so odd that it needs an explanation, and while many people can find that their childhoods influence their life choices sometimes you just feel a certain way and can't do much about it.
Oh this is quite comforting to know actually. I've been wondering lately if my own lack of maternal feelings is because I didn't experience a lot of maternal feelings from my mother, so maybe my experiences growing up soured me to the idea having children. I feel better that it's a decision that I may have come to regardless.
Oh that's interesting. I wonder if mine ever reflects on her own kids' childfree-ness, her own desperate desire for grandkids, and how crappy of a parent she was. I would like to read a paper on her inner workings in that regard, but I have no interest in talking it out with her at all.
Jumping in with Dancing Narwhal here–I had a fabulous childhood, my parents have a model marriage (and have never pressured me to "give them" grandchildren), I love them and my brother dearly, but I don't want kids. This isn't a reflection on how I was raised, it's just a reality of my life. I would be deeply, deeply hurt if my mom thought that I didn't want kids because of how she raised me, or that my reproductive choices are at all reflective of her.
I can see I did frame the question oddly.
I myself had a very happy childhood. My family was close-knit and supportive, and my relationship with my parents and siblings is wonderful. Like Dancing Narwhal, I just don't feel the desire to have kids. I have a niece and nephew and most of my married friends have kids or plan to have them, but I just don't see having children of my own as enhancing my life. I feel sort of indifferent to them, and I've always believed that there are enough people out there who are desperate to have kids that it is approaching a moral wrong for someone like me to have kids I don't really want.
When I met Mr. Blazes, I told him right away that I wasn't interested in having kids. This was a revelation to him. We have talked about it since, and he says that he always assumed he would have kids because that is what people who grow up and get married do. BUT, when I presented him with the option not to, he said it was like someone had relieved a pressure he didn't know was there. Basically, he says it is like he was let off the hook.
But I guess all framing aside, I really just want to talk about my MIL, because she is a piece of work.
yeah, I do too. See you in the FOT?
I'm in.
Well, for the record, one of the (many) reasons I have not to become a parent is because I have the same personality as my mother, and she was kind of a terrible mother. (She also didn't have much of a choice; my sister and I were both accidents.) However, on the other hand my sister, who has a very different personality, does want children. So I'm not sure whether that proves or disproves anything.
One of the turns of phrase that popped up in two of the dudes' responses was really interesting to me– kids aren't desirable in part because they lack the capacity for communication (no full sentences/can't have a conversation).
Obviously kids can eventually have conversations, but I think this Reason Why Not is intriguing. Seems to me that it's a way of stating a very big concern: that you could end up with a person forever in your life with whom you can't connect quite in the ways you want. That could be a mismatch of temperament or values or perspective or physical capacities, or whatever. It's a big cliff to jump off of ("Hola, stranger! You're here because I made you and now we're in this together, like it or lump it!").
I totally understand why it's not a desirable life trajectory for people; nobody is guaranteed a rich and happy and smooth parent/child relationship and the possibility of disaster looms large in the imagination when a kid is hypothetical OR real. I thought about it a lot while I was pregnant, and still sometimes now that she's around.
I also recently read Andrew Solomon's "Far From the Tree," so this idea of the unrecognizable kin is on my mind. (Recommended highly.)
Seems to me that it's a way of stating a very big concern: that you could end up with a person forever in your life with whom you can't connect quite in the ways you want. That could be a mismatch of temperament or values or perspective or physical capacities, or whatever. It's a big cliff to jump off of ("Hola, stranger! You're here because I made you and now we're in this together, like it or lump it!").
Oh man, I've thought about this a lot and sometimes use it to poke my husband. "What if we have kids who don't like reading? who don't care about being active? what if they're a republicans?"
My mother and I do love each other, but because we have a pretty significant language barrier–we can understand each other in Vietnamese or English but we can never communicate fully as adults because my spoken Vietnamese is child-like while she speaks with broken English. It was really difficult when I was a teenager and in my early twenties but that realization that we don't have a common language has made me realize I need to work harder to connect with her. (We also don't have some shared values, which doesn't help either..) It's not an insurmountable thing but I think it's normal. How many parents and children share exactly the same values or interests or have compatible personalities?
I will admit that I am a little terrified–and say this as someone who feels 60/40 on the kids thing–about the seenubg randomness of personalities/interests/etc.
Great point. It's the other side of the "someone to take care of you when you're old" argument. What if you and your child grow apart? What if your bond never goes beyond that gut-level "blood is thicker than water" kind of love?
When someone (usually a well-meaning relative) asks me when I'm going to have children, I reply, "oh no, I couldn't possibly, I'm a vegetarian." They never ask twice.
I like kids okay, as long as they belong to other people. Kids can be a lot of fun when you are not their primary caregiver! That said, 18 years of unpaid childrearing labor? Not gonna happen. When someone offers to pay me my freelance rate for those 18 years, I'll consider it.
Well, that is just a perfect response and I am going to steal it! I love my mother, and I love babies, but I don't think it's a good idea for me to have kids (and my partner doesn't want them), and my logical, thoughtfully reasoned explanations as to why I'm choosing not to seem to go in one of her ears and out the other. A brief snarky reference to cannibalism might work where everything else hasn't! (She said, doubtfully).
If nothing else, it clearly communicates that you no longer wish to discuss the topic in a way that saying "I do not wish to discuss this" somehow doesn't. Good luck!
A good male friend of mine, born in 1918, had three children (girls) and a happy marriage. He was well-adjusted, had a good and fulfilling career, and maintained good relationships with his kids up till the time he died.
He once told me that if he had to do it all over again, meaning the kids, he wouldn't have done it at all. Also present at the time he said this was a similarly-aged female friend of his who'd had children (and who I don't think was very happy about it). She immediately started harping at him about how wrong and selfish his statement was.
He had cultural freedom to say it, she didn't (or at least she probably didn't think she did). He also happened to be a more honest person than she was, which also helped with the candor.
God, I miss that guy.
Late-20-something-dude-with-wife: I'm more of an agnostic. Right time, right place, etc. Right now is definitely not, but who knows about the future. There may never be space in our lives, and that's cool, too! As long as we're both keeping each other happy/busy.
It gets weird when you talk about with friends/siblings with kids. I say we're financially nowhere near where we need to be to have one kid. Then I get the "you'll never be ready, etc." Which I don't believe. So it just turns into that awkward moment where I've just told them that their "decision" to have (a) kid(s) was a bit underdeveloped.
I've tried to steer clear of that stuff ever since. Now I just smile and nod.
The "never be ready" thing has some truth to it, but there are definitely times when you can be MORE ready than others, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be more financially secure before you have kids (if you have them at all). It sucks that sometimes you have to weigh "ready" with biology/age and then make the jump off the "no kids" or "yes kids" cliff because there is a time limit (unless you adopt, etc.) Fortunately you are not there yet!
I am a fellow female who does not want kids. I want to say thank you for saying you don't like kids. All other females whom I have heard from say (or write) "I love kids; I just don't want my own" as though it is ok to not want kids as long as you like them. I do not like kids, so thank you for sharing that you also do not.
Also, cool perspective. I've seen approximately 12 zillion articles on childfree women but not childfree men.
Great to see this article!
The accusations of selfishness always confuse me. Having children is inherently selfish! I mean, you're creating a life and risking terrible things happening to this person you made, just because you wanted one. Most of the reasons people cite for having one are to feel more deeply, to have that experience, because a deep longing, to have a family with them when they're old, etc. I'm not saying it's wrong or that selfishness is definitely bad, but it's definitely a selfish decision.
I agree with this so completely. I have a child, because I want to be a parent. Someone else does not have a child because she does not want to be a parent. Why does only one of these acts routinely get labeled as selfish? In both cases we are doing the thing we want to do. Unless these people making the argument are trying to tell me that they never wanted to be parents at all, but selflessly took one for the team to perpetuate humanity…
Here's the thing. It's fine to not want kids. Lots of good people don't want kids, and lots of terrible people do want kids and do have kids. However, my purely anecdotal experience tells me that most (NOT ALL) people who don't want kids tend to be assholes. Like if I were to play the percentages, and someone put a gun to my head and said there are two people here, one wants kids and one doesn't, which is the asshole, and my getting the question right would determine whether I live or die, there is no question I'm saying the person who doesn't want kids is an asshole. It's like those other social rules in life, like most women who don't have female friends are assholes, or most men without any female friends are assholes.
I think that you making that leap of judgement, no matter how hypothetically gun-to-head you make it, makes you the asshole. I think those social rules are bullshit too. You might have a particular definition of 'asshole', why I'm probably being some kind-of asshole right now.
This comment mostly just makes you sound like the asshole here.
Assuming this is true, we're all happier if assholes don't reproduce, so win/win.
I know more obnoxious assholes who have children than assholes who don't want children. I have many friends who don't want kids, and they are delightful. I do want (and am currently gestating) children (well, child), but that doesn't make me a nicer/better person or even more likely to be a nice person than my friends who don't have/want kids.
Whenever I hear someone complaining of gender double-standards, I always look to whether their analysis considered potential biological differences as a cause. In this case, I found myself wondering whether women experience desire for children differently from men. I suppose women could develop a craving for pregnancy that men would have no analog for. Is it possible that this plays some role in our cultural expressions around this issue?
Ah, yes. The "baby fever" principle.
I can imagine many of us women having some biological desire to have a baby (the smell of a new baby! etc. etc.) but I cannot imagine any drive whatsoever to be pregnant. Ugh.
I have wondered this same thing for….well, for half of my life. I am a chlidfree woman and have been since I was old enough to know it was a choice (since high school). I had a great childhood and 2 of my sisters have children and love being a parent. I have had friends (as well as my sister, with whom I'm very close) talk to me about the "craving" thing. Of all the women I know, my sister is the best example of someone who does not do things for the sake of following social norms. So it blew me away when she talked about the whole craving thing. Because I've never felt anything even remotely like that. Quite the opposite, in fact. I read all kinds of childfree articles and results of studies and have never found anything that explains this difference other than "to each his own." Among my childfree friends, most of whom are very intelligent, educated, critical thinkers, I cannot usually raise this question because it's sort of politically incorrect. To wonder out loud if there is a biological reason for the difference between, for example, my sister craving kids and me not ever having anything resembling that craving, is a slippery slope. It leads to the analysis of whether there could be something wrong with me, scientifically or biologically speaking, that is. I am 42. My sister is younger than me. I have often wondered if my "craving" might kick in when, for example, I'm 45 and suddenly start dying for a BAY-BEEEE. I can't imagine that happening, and even if it did, it would be blocked out by my rational thoughts and dread of giving up my years 45-65 to raise a kid, when I've already worked so hard in life, I'm ready to retire. So craving or no craving, it isn't happening for me. But I would love to know more about the science of this, if there IS indeed a scientific explanation.
I don't want kids, and ever since I realized that it was an option to be child-free I knew that was how I'd live. My sister had a baby a year ago, and that tiny proto-human is awesome and I love her and I adore spending time with her. But I still want to be child-free, partly for the free part, and partly because of multi-generational chronic depression, and partly because I believe that children's lives are improved by having non-parental trustworthy and trusting adults around and I want to be that person for my niece. Yet my (depressed, narcissistic, paranoid) mother refuses to believe that my child-free preference is not just a situational problem. She actually said the other day that if I wanted to have a baby I could just move in with her (I'm almost 40; she's over 70). She refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of this decision that I've made. And she cannot face the fact that the sadness of her life taught me that being child-free is the way for me to go. I wish she could see that she taught me a valuable lesson, but all she can see is that she somehow failed because I don't believe that being a mother is the bestest way to live.
Interestingly my mom has taken to pressuring me _not_ to have kids (I want to be a parent). My parents have never been ones to pressure my brother or myself into "giving them grandchildren" but this is an interesting twist. I suppose it's fatalism about the world and probably her job search frustrations coming out. Maybe also the fact that my parents wouldn't be close to my kids since I've fairly permanently moved nine time zones away, but still.
It makes me sad, because I hoped my parents would both be excited if it happened. It'd be really neat to come visit with my hypothetical sprog for weeks over summer/winter holidays.
She has also made it clear that she wouldn't be free babysitting on a regular basis. Though I bet my dad'd be pleased as punch to do it! She was an unhappy parent to toddlers, and I think only really became happy with us when we became teenagers. Now we both live far away. I suppose one could see the whole experience as having broken her heart… so I guess it makes sense that she's warning me off.
Interesting to see the second generational "I don't want grandkids" response. I bet she'd get tons of pushback from people if that were a question anyone ever asked. But then, my mom's quite happy to ignore social conventions.
I would never try to convince anyone to have kids – what a strange thing to do. It is life-changing and a lot of work. I enjoy the daylights out of having kids after having several years of doing kid-unfriendly stuff. I don't feel I have missed out one way or another.
I had never heard the "they can't have a conversation" reason, though. Not that it isn't valid, but it strikes me as odd. You can't have an ADULT conversation with them for the first few years, but by the age of 18 months/2 years my kids were able to converse. And they are unbelievably hilarious.
Anyway, cheers to these people for being clear about what they want and not subjecting children to a life of being unwanted – a terrible fate.
Wait what, do we really not know that men don't get censured for not wanting kids? Men don't get social pushback the same way as women do for ANYTHING. (But most especially for anything related to having a family.)
I love you so much, The Hyphen Toast. Thank you for this.