Aunt Acid: Advice for Dealing with People You Can’t Stand
Feel free to ask Aunt Acid a variety of questions at [email protected] . Previous installments can be found here .
Dear Aunt Acid,
I’m an undergraduate woman participating in a summer math research program. My project team consists of me and two other students, both men. Both of them curse constantly and casually. As long as they’re just swearing, it doesn’t bother me enough to make it worth bringing up, but I do object to their misogynistic language — “what a little bitch,” “don’t be such a pussy,” and so on. (Whether or not these words can be “reclaimed,” that’s definitely not what’s going on here.)
Today Bob held out his hand, gimme-five style, and said, “Here, touch me.” When Dave reached out, Bob jerked his hand away and said, “Just kidding, FAGGOT!” They clearly don’t think any of this is a big deal, and I don’t know how to call them out without them thinking that I’m an angry feminist. (I am an angry feminist, of course, but I’ve found it’s easier to get men to behave if they don’t know this.) What should I say?
Monica
Monica:
The world is full of injustices and cruelties over which we have no power. We can yell at Republican primary debates on TV, at international news coverage, at local news coverage, at street construction, at August weather; we can go all Howard Beale and stick our heads out the window and scream, “We’re mad as hell and we’re not going to take it anymore!” So often it seems like farting on a subway platform: No one will notice and nothing will change.
Every once in a while, though, life presents you with a problem you can solve. Not just that: a problem you can yell at, where yelling might actually make a difference.
If these boors in your program were your superiors, I would have to tell you to do the boring, responsible thing: approach them at least once, asking them to be more considerate in their speech; keep records, especially any example of their being offensive in writing; and file a complaint with Human Resources.
But these guys are just students. They’re on your level. Not in terms of maturity or understanding, but you know. Age-wise. Seniority-wise. Why not try yelling? Why not respond to them in the only language they seem to understand?
“Jesus Christ,” you could exclaim, slamming your hand down on your desk, the next time one of them does his hilarious routine. “What, are we in fourth grade? Can you cool it with this shit, please? You’re being juvenile, you’re being ignorant, and even if I weren’t offended, which I am — which any person with a functioning limbic system would be — you’re being ANNOYING. Shut the fuck up or I will go crazy and vomit angry feminist all over your laptops. Got it?”
Vent your frustration. At them. It might work. Even if it doesn’t, think how much better you’ll feel.
Profanely,
Aunt Acid
*
Dear Aunt Acid,
I live in a biggish U.S. city, but the queer scene is incredibly small. There are already quite a few spaces where I don’t go because of the racism/transphobia/misogyny/scene politics, so my social circle is pretty limited. Some of my friends who have lived here longest have a friend, who I’ll call Charlie, who I fucking hate. He’s never done or said anything offensive around me, but I find his personality just…grating. He’s a white cis man, I’m unsure if he identifies as queer (I’m a queer cis woman), and he talks CONSTANTLY over everyone, about nothing at all, and what he does say is almost always factually wrong. He’s friends with literally all of my close friends here, and I really like his partner, but I haven’t gotten to know them very well because Charlie is always around and I feel like I go out of my way to avoid him. I have no idea WHAT merit my other friends see in him, but they do. I guess my question is, should I say something to my other friends? Should I tell his partner that I want us to hang out, but please don’t invite Charlie? It’s a situation that has persisted for a while and I don’t know how to handle it. I don’t want our mutual friends to feel like I’m attacking him over nothing — I don’t like him AS A PERSON, it’s not that I think he’s a serial murderer or something — or can’t just suck it up and be around someone I don’t like, but I also know that I’m not going to warm up to him, having now been to enough house shows, parties and events that he was at to determine that his contributions to conversation do nothing for me, and I’d pretty much always rather he not be there.
Sincerely,
Possibly Petty, Definitely Cranky
PPDC:
Never underestimate the appeal of confident cis white men. There’s just something about them: their ability to take up space without apologizing for it, perhaps. Their voices, which we have been trained over millennia to associate with reassurance and authority. Their basilisk eyes. They run nearly everything important in the world, from the stock exchange to the New Yorker . Is it any wonder they are also playing havoc with your friend group?
This Charlie person sounds like a particularly irksome case in point, and I’m sorry all of your friends have been taken in by him. There are measures you can take to extricate yourself, though. We’re not in Kindergarten anymore; everyone understands that some people simply do not get along. Pull one or two of your closest friends aside and confide in them: “Look, Charlie and I are like oil and water. We don’t mix well. Can we aim for a thing where, if we’re doing something, we only invite him every third time? That’s about as much as we can handle of each other.”
If your friends are at all perceptive, they will not be shocked by this revelation. Nor will they stutter to a halt if you start taking more control of your social life, throwing more parties and organizing more events as well as, crucially, more one-on-one or intimate group gatherings, so as to have more of a say over the guest list.
Think of these efforts as counter-programming. It’s easier to start your own basic cable station than to try to get NBC to stop showing reruns of “Friends.” You may find that other people in and around your social circle are excited to have an opportunity to engage and relax in a Charlie-free environment — to change the channel, at least once in a while.
This doesn’t mean starting the equivalent of a “No Homers” clubhouse . You don’t have to be a jerk about excluding Charlie. In fact, please don’t. Assume that you will still probably see him more frequently than you would like, and be as cordial as you can without letting him raise your blood pressure. Because unless he does something truly heinous and/or you want to get all High Drama about forcing friends to choose between you, you’re probably stuck with him. You can reduce your exposure to Charlie, though, and if he’s been making you this cranky for this long, you should.
If people ask — and, duh, they will — make clear that it’s not personal. He hasn’t done anything to you, and you don’t wish him any harm. You’re not aiming to start any in-group fighting, let alone some kind of schism. You simply prefer to spend as much of your quality time as possible with people who are more like you in the important ways. Like, for example, they don’t have basilisk eyes. But keep that part to yourself.
Stonily,
Aunt Acid
*
Illustrator: J. Longo is a freelance Illustrator & Storyboard Artist in Brooklyn, NY. His work can be seen at JLongoArt.com and Instagram .
About Author
by Aunt Acid
The role of Aunt Acid is played by Brooklyn-based know-it-all Ester Bloom . Follow her @shorterstory .
LW2: Aunt Acid's advice to throw more parties is a really good one. But I would be careful about her advice to ask your friends to only invite Charlie every third time. If YOU'RE doing the inviting, just don't invite him. Ever. And don't give people the opportunity to invite others (read: Charlie).
But asking other people to not invite him, especially to public-type events like shows, is a bit socially risky and could put your friends in an uncomfortable and unfair position. And considering you're in a small social scene, I would tread carefully.
*Edited to fix my fucking grammar.
Yep agreed. Esp. as LW2 is new to the scene and Charlie is, for whatever inscrutable reasons, established.
Good point. I'm also wondering about how one can invite Charlie's partner without him assuming that he can bring Charlie along. How can you gracefully make it clear that ONLY the partner is welcome, when they're used to showing up together to this group's get-togethers? It sounds like you'll have to not-invite the partner, too (which may not matter to the OP in this case, but I can imagine others where that might be a loss…OR it could cause an issue if he's besties with someone else in the group).
How about saying to the partner "I'd love to hang out one on one sometime?" Well, if that is indeed the case!
I can't tell if Charlie's partner is a woman or man, but if it's the former, one of my favorite boyfriend-exclusionary tactics is to organizes a LADIES NIGHT :)
Hey just a heads up that they might be neither! Sometimes it can feel a little rough to see a neutral they get responded to with automatic gendering.
Maybe if LW2 started out by inviting Charlie's partner to ticketed events? Like, "I'm going to see this play and I have an extra ticket, do you want to come?" Then LW2 could establish a pattern of hanging out with Charlie's partner one on one, later transitioning to hangouts at other venues.
I'd personally be careful about this and the potential to set up situations which might put Charlie's partner in an uncomfortable position, though. If you find Charlie abrasive enough that you don't want to be in a room with him, but want to establish a stable friendship with his partner — well, people are partners for reasons. They choose each other and care about each other. And if you and Charlie's partner hit it off, that could lead to some very uncomfortable trouble down the line when they wonder why you dodge events or plans that include him, get that look on your face when he comes up in conversation, or basically — without intention — default Partner into a role where they have to mediate or keep you two separate.
It's a hard thing to be told by a friend that the person you love isn't good enough for them. So…yes. I think I would just personally consider very carefully what's wanted from the friendship with Partner.
agreed. and if you're invited to parties where Charlie will be, you can skip out every so often, but don't tell people WHY you're skipping out. then that makes people who do actually like him feel really weird. i had friends who did this because they didn't like one of the go-to guy's new girlfriend. they openly told us they wouldn't show up to anything that she was invited to. i really liked her, so… *they* were the ones who got cut out. if you show up, like, every third time, no one will notice if you don't say anything.
An alternative method to dealing with Charlie might just be addressing his annoying behaviour. Like when he speaks over you, speak up and say "Excuse me, I wasn't done speaking". If he starts waffling on with absolute bullshit about something you know isn't true, call him on it. You don't have to be rude, but he doesn't have the monopoly on facts. Guys like this don't even know what they're doing is objectionable. They think everyone is hanging on their every word, probably because no one ever told them they had no idea what they were talking about. Tell him. Repeatedly. With any luck, maybe he'll stop wanting to hang out with you.
Sadly, many friend-groups are averse to conflict and just don't want to make anyone feel alienated, even when that person's very presence makes another of their friends feel alienated every time they are at the same party. Even when the other person physically assaulted you, the group solution is to offer no solution at all because by and large, people are well-meaning but cowardly when it comes to their own comfort.
The only solution I have ever found was to disengage MYSELF from events and lightly disengage from the friend group when there was a problem person in said group. You can't really stop Charlie from being at things. You can, however, choose to accept only every third invitation, or to only attend events so large that you can easily hang out on one side of the room and never have to make conversation with Charlie.
Oh, one more thing! You can always just invite one or two people out to brunch or coffee or whatever and say that you just prefer small groups, if you're worried about never seeing your friends. That way you're not getting anyone worried about excluding anyone.
I like the small-group idea a lot. Have used before and certainly will again.
LW2, if you feel comfortable, you could try standing up to Charlie when he starts speaking over people. I've started doing this to men (particularly white men) who talk over women and it feels AMAZING. If he interrupts you, a simple "Excuse me, I wasn't finished – [the rest of your point]" (which keeps getting louder the longer you have to talk over him) works wonders. If he talks over someone else: "I was actually really interested in what Nicki was saying, and you didn't let her finish – Nicki, could you repeat that please?"
It doesn't solve the issue of having to see and hang out with him, but if you ever feel like teaching a man his place, this has worked for me.
+1000 for teaching men their place!
I'm sure, too, that if LW says something like that, at least one other person in the group will nod knowingly or make eye contact that says "oh, ok, this guy IS being irritating, it's not just me being irritable." And that person will speak up next time.
"Excuse me, did the middle of my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?"
THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST SATISFYING THINGS YOU CAN DOOOOO
I do this all the time and it is one of the best feelings ever . Well, I used to do it all the time. Pretty much all the people who tend toward that habit have mysteriously stopped hanging out around me.
YES. I also got to do this when my male friend introduced me to his new girlfriend. He told me her name, where she goes to school, what she's studying, where hopes to apply for grad school, where she grew up, where she lives now…all while she stood there between us, completely mute.
I eventually just smiled and said, "So, do you do ALL of her talking, or is she allowed to speak directly to me?"
The stunned look on both their faces was, just, dessert.
Love the advice on #1, am not totally sure that involving others in this personal gripe with Charlie will be super effective on #2.
Expanding: you might have to assume that Occam's Razor holds, and that the people who spend time with Charlie do it because they like him—or, at least, find him tolerable. Before you launch into "him or me" mode, you might want to do some subtle fact-finding to see if the Razor holds true. Asking a buddy or two, "Hey, what's the deal with Charlie? Am I the only one who find the constant mansplaining irksome?" might net you blank stares, or a laugh and a "That's our Charlie!" or a vigorous "I KNOW RIGHT?!" at which point you can commiserate with your new besties.
Because, if you know you have folks who subscribe to your un-Chuckles newsletter, when you start saying things like, "Hey, Charlie, I/Linda/Patrice WAS TALKING" or calling out his non-true statements, you will likely see some approving nods out the corner of your eye. Knowing those nods will be there ahead of time could be useful.
Of course, this is a little more aggressive-aggressive than the passive-aggressive route of trying to not make your paths cross, but if you're okay with holding your own, and know you have allies, this could recalibrate the Charlie factor enough in your favour to make socializing as a group more worthwhile?
This is good advice. I did this in a similar situation and discovered that all of my female friends dislike the person I dislike and none of my male friends have a problem with her. She's just one of those women who doesn't really get along with other women, which I figure is her loss. Knowing that I'm not alone in my distaste for her has made dealing with her much easier as I know I can vent to people without causing any upset.
I also figured out that she's jealous of my relationship with my best friend (a man) who I'm fairly certain she fancies. Which just proves to me that she is tiresome (like seriously, you can't cope with a guy you like, who is not even your boyfriend and has no romantic interest in you, having a close female friend?), but again, helps me to deal with her.
Anyway, LW2, do go ahead and try and work out what everyone thinks of this dude and that might lighten your load.
I'm not sure yelling should ever be your first step. Those guys are being obnoxious, but you don't want to turn it into a shouting match; who wants to comply with requests made by someone who is yelling at them? I'd go with something a little calmer before you start smacking the table. How about an indoor-voice, "Guys. That is really unprofessional. Knock it off."
I think a balance can be struck. You don't need to swear or threaten them, but I am in favor of showing your emotion — be vehement about how this is unprofessional, offensive, and you won't listen to it any longer.
(I had a supervisor who had anger mangement/stress issues, but he was very critical any time I allowed any emotion in my voice or body language. Fuck that shit and the general expectation that Professional Women should always be super-calm and stoic to the point of nearly being in a coma. And I like Aunt Acid's advice of taking advantage of the peer relationship, since they are SO immature. I really think being loud will make a bigger impression with them than quietly saying, "Cut it out.")
I agree about the balance thing. Sometimes it's best to start with a more neutral approach, but I have successfully shocked some dudes into shutting up about whatever dickhead thing they were saying by getting outwardly angry. The "I'VE HAD IT WITH YOU" angle can be very effective.
I don't think we always need to be super-calm and stoic, but as someone who supervises undergraduates in an academic setting, I would much prefer that they handle interpersonal disputes without yelling and swearing. Yelling and swearing is sinking to the bros' level – or not all the way down to their level, since they are being misogynist and homophobic as well as obnoxious, but still to a level that is lower than ideal.
I agree with you here, mostly – I think you can speak in an "indoor voice" but still let a little vehemence bleed through. "Guys, seriously ? Are we REALLY still using slurs and gross language? It's really distracting and offensive and has nothing to do with the work we've been hired to do. Cut it out ."
Yes, I agree. Vehemence is totally in play!
Am I a terrible person? Because if I were to proceed with "Charlie", I would not go about throwing parties to which he is not invited (I have one of these people in my friendgroup, they just always seem to hear about the event anyway).
I would advise calling Charlie on his crap. Like, straight up, the next time he interrupts someone else, say "Hunh. But I was really interested in what Friend X was saying", *turns to and addresses friend X "you were saying…?" Or if he is interrupting you, _just don't stop talking_. If he calls you on refusing to be interrupted, an innocent "O, since I was already talking, I just assumed that talking over each other was a thing we did now, sorry!"
This will play out one of two ways. 1) Charlie gets all butt-hurt and stops coming to things that you are at. WIN! 2) Charlie actually figure out that his behaviour is mansplainy and will change it.
The key to this, tho, is that you have to _always_ be polite (like, to the point of choking on the saccharine responses you will give) and that you have to _always_ be right. Eventually, tho, something will give.
No this is actually the less terrible-person approach.
But they are not mutually exclusive! I think it's fine to go nuclear on him at events and also to host parties where you are actually happy and comfortable and not engaged in in a battle with a mansplainer all the time.
Charlie sounds a lot like somebody I know, and if it's a similar case– where the person isn't malicious, just annoying– then there's really no way to cut that person out of your social circle without drawing a lot of attention and looking like a jerk. In my case I didn't have any kind of plan, I just got fed up one day and said something like "hey, can you stop interrupting and changing the subject? I want to settle the discussion I was having here." We ended up talking about it one-on-one later, she was kind of hurt but never realized how obnoxious it is when she blurts stuff out in the middle of the conversation. I don't think we have any hard feelings today.
I actually ended up pretty much dropping a friendgroup i was starting to get to know and like because of a pair of Charlies. Because I realized I just didn't have the time or energy to follow through on strategies A (noninvited parties) or B (calling out politely and rightly). I still see a few one-on-one, but gave up on integrating into the whole group a couple years ago.
so these strategies work if you're Really Invested in a group of people. I mean, as far as I can tell Charlies almost never actually get kicked out, and it's up to you to decide what to do with that knowledge.
Yeah, I think this is like the battle of Saratoga – you need three directions of attack.
1) When you are in social situations where Charlie is also present, engage in the ways commenters have described – shut down his interruptions, correct his factual errors, etc.
2) Avoid Charlie – Engage your own social situations where Charlie is not present. Host your own parties. Make it clear that invitations should not be extended to additional individuals without checking with you. Opt not to go to things where Charlie will be presence if a lot of interaction will be required (e.g. go to things like shows/concerts, but not dinner/drinks/game days).
3) Talk to other members of your social circle and let them know that you are not a Charlie fan. This will make them less likely to try to invite him as a plus-one to things you are hosting, and also may help them curate their guest list for other things (this may mean you get invited to less stuff, especially if Charlie's presence in the group is largely a function of his partner's membership in the group).
Military history FTW!
Monica:
I am sorry you've had to deal with that. It's the end of August, REUs and other similar projects are usually over by now, so, hopefully you don't have to deal with these…. individuals anymore, unless they go to the same school as you do or you're presenting together at conferences. When I did a math REU, my group was 100% womens college students. We still had someone who was terrible enough as a group member that none of us talk to her anymore, or even say her name out loud. And while our group was fine, there were some awkward conversations at lunch or in the dorm.
But, yeah, say something. There are lots of options. You could be annoyed per Aunt Acid above. You could be polite- "It's just one of those things that distracts me! Could you please avoid that?". You could make fun of them- "Seriously, that's all you've got for insults? That's pretty pathetic.". You could pretend not to get it, and make them explain it- "Wait, if he… touches you… then he's homosexual? Is that what you're saying? I don't understand. Could you explain that?" ……. "So you're saying that you're just so unattractive that anyone who'll touch you must be interested in having sex with you?". How you handle it will depend on your personality, how angry you are, what you think of these dudes, what point in the summer it is….
And then, depending on how they take that, you go to your adviser. This may be touchy, depending on who it is, and you may not know this person as well as other prof you'll work with– but, with most REU and REU like programs, it's WORK. You are being PAID to sit there all summer and math, with other mathematicians. And these bros weren't acting like it was a math job, they were acting like it was math summer camp. So you don't need to get into a philosophical discussion with the prof about feminism or queer theory– these dudes didn't behave in a professional manner, your boss needs to deal with it somehow. Maybe the prof also says something, or you work on a different subtopic in a different room, or whatever.
So, whatever, maybe these bros are in your rearview mirror, maybe you just need to deal with them a couple more times, but, more generally, get yourself a community of math ladies. Whether that's an informal tuesday-night-work-on-psets-and-bitchfest, or a formal mentoring circle sponsored by the department, whatever. I don't know where you are, but consider finding some women-centric conferences (ie, Smith's WiMiN (if you're localish and that appeals to you, the info on 2015 doesn't look like it's up yet– if you wouldn't feel comfortable contacting the Dept Chair about it, let me know and I'll get details for you.))
Having other women who have dealt with this bullshit is SO NICE. People who remember being told to shut up in AP Calc in high school for asking a question that was "too smart" or whatever. People who can warn you about other departments to avoid, or advisers, or even just say "yeah, you can totally tell (prof) that the guys are being dudebros, he'll be on your side" or "try talking to (grad student at your REU), he's one of the good ones". This works better if your community includes other people who have done REUs elsewhere, or gone to Budapest, or Junior years at other schools. But the bitchfest still works well even if it's just people who have only done math at your school.
Thank you! The program's over with (and also I'm planning on grad school in public health, which is probably more lady-friendly), but I am planning on putting together an informal STEM Ladies' Hangout, based on your advice. I was chatting with a physics major the other day who said she'd also appreciate that, so we'll see how it goes! :)
Perhaps I have been out of society for too long, but for the second question, I would be tempted to ask a friend who seems slightly less enamored of Charlie "So, is there something I'm not seeing about Charlie, or… Because his partner's lovely, but…" and then trail off, leaving "but he's a jackass" unsaid.
Maybe he's an old friend whom most of the group has outgrown but he keeps on being invited because inertia, or because everyone thinks everyone else likes him. Like Bunny in "The Secret History". (Please do not follow the example of "The Secret History".)
Or at least, keep the Bunny option as a last resort.
LW 1: PLEASE YELL AT THESE DOLTS. They need to understand what they're doing is a) not appropriate for adults and b) not appropriate in a professional setting, which is what your project is supposed to be preparing them for. DO THE WORLD A FAVOUR AND RELEASE YOUR RIGHTEOUS FEMINIST ANGER.
Charlie? We don't have any Charlie in our friend group….
oh hey wait I just got this that's awesome.
Re: Letter #1, it's my experience that guys that age are pretty vulnerable to the implication that whatever they are doing is dumb and uncool. I've found being dismissive to work fairly well as long as you're otherwise friendly with them. A response like "oh my God, are you serious? What are you, 12?" like you honestly are a little embarrassed for them can be pretty effective.
Given that they're probably acting this way to try and get LW attention, she should be as dismissive and pitying of their shit as possible.
Do you just mean they like attention, or they were vying for my romantic attention? They knew I'm engaged so the latter seems unlikely, but it's very plausible that they just like everyone else to be paying attention to them.
Going off my unfortunately vast experience with young bro-types, I don’t think they even have an end goal in mind other than “get people to notice us”. You just happened to be the audience and, being a woman (or female presenting, I’m assuming your gender, so do excuse me if I’m wrong), tends to encourage the macho posturing to get turned up to 11. Hence all the gay stuff. It is pathetically transparent, but they are such simple creatures.
Think of it as Primate Display. They don't have a goal in mind, it's just part of their daily interactions.
Re: Letter #1: I am THERE. I recommend, if you are like me and hate confrontation, that you respond to these situations with your best "Not Funny, Guys" face. Bring your displeased-eyebrows game, harden your face into the archest-possible stone and look at them until they have seen and are uncomfortable, then return to your work. Repeat this every single time they say something offensive.
When I was a TA, one of our professors was constantly dropping slightly offensive comments. Mostly, people giggled uncomfortably, which (of course) encouraged him. He always insisted on advising a female grad student and having her be his TA for the duration of her degree; this often meant he had an amused female presence in his undergrad classes. My friend was his chosen TA during my degree – she employed her unamused eyebrows to great effect, and by the end of my second year, he was quite cowed.
I have had great sucess retraining a sexist coworker by employing a pointed "Wow. Really?" and then subject change back to the work we were doing. It really sends the message that its grand social faux pas and not just your opinion but it's less confrontational than Auntie's advice.
and if they ask why, just say something like "well, it's kind of a weird thing to say out loud/at work. " or "im just surpised you would say something like that."
This is good advice! A lot of things we tend to think about in terms of privilege or prejudice (like fat-shaming) also fall under etiquette (Do Not Make Personal Remarks) and it's a much smaller can of worms to open.
What's important is holding the unamused face long enough for them to feel uncomfortable. It's more than just the disgusted snort and eye roll that I see women do when they're embarrassed by their boyfriend's or husband's boorish behavior. I call mine the "think abou what you just said blank stare". It works beautifully but you have to commit.
Ultimately you have to go with what you can live with- I get that learning to not panic at confrontation is harder for some people than others. (As is learning not to relish confrontation when you know you're in the right.)
I did make use of Rookie Mag's wonderful old article on How To Bitchface.
Whoa, this is a thing of beauty.
True confession: I am married to a bit of a Charlie. And I make it my business to call him out when he is being loud for no reason, interrupting, inserting his opinion when he isn't asked, etc. I think if someone he wasn't married to would express these same sentiments, it would validate what I'm saying and help him see the value of self-policing.And I would probably develop a serious crush on anyone who helped me with training my Charlie. :)
I was a Charlie in my younger days. I learned better. It's possible! Best of luck to you helping yours break the habit.
Re: LW1. My boyfriend and his son talk like this. I hate the idea of dropping to their level. I hate yelling. I hate gratuitous swearing. I hate "bitch" and "pussy." It feels so violating. I have tried quietly asking them to tone it down. But I fear their long years of this language, unchallenged is too much of an ingrained habit. I've had anxiety attacks over this. Perhaps I've been heard after the last time I fell apart over it.
Maybe I should try the motherly humiliation tactic? Sigh… not sure it's worth it. So many other battles to fight.
That sounds really tough! How does your boyfriend react when you ask him to tone it down? Does he understand that it makes you feel violated? Because if he does, and he's not trying to get better, that seems really disrespectful of your feelings.
He has a very, very difficult time understanding. It takes about 24 hours of horrible arguments, but then he does try to tone it down. But it creeps back in. Leaving me on edge, hyper-vigilant. Apparently certain kinds of men think they are awesome and pointing out one's feelings is labeled "controlling." And I must say, I agree to some extent. It was a mistake for me to think this could work. I can't change him and I can't stand it anymore.
Internet hugs to you, Tarragoner. I know those feelings well myself. But constantly being on edge like that is no way to live.
"Apparently certain kinds of men think they are awesome and pointing out one's feelings is labeled "controlling." And I must say, I agree to some extent."
I would like to gently, lovingly, push back on this. There are boundaries, and there are ultimatums. Boundaries say "these are the things that I am okay with. These are the things I am not okay with. If we venture into the land of 'not okay', there are consequences. One of those might be that I leave. I respect that you have the right to make these choices, but if you do, then you need to respect mine." Ultimatums say "You can't do this thing, because I say so, and if you don't, then REALLY BAD THINGS will happen, but maybe I'm not serious about that, maybe I'm just threatening".
If you are trying to set up and enforce reasonable boundaries, that is NOT being controlling. If he is not respecting your reasonable boundaries, and is calling them controlling, is treating them like ultimatums, then he is not being respectful, not being loving. Trying to stop you from setting boundaries by telling you it's controlling is controlling . It can also be gaslighting, it can be abusive, it can make you unwilling to advocate for yourself.
"It was a mistake for me to think this could work. I can't change him and I can't stand it anymore."
Jedi hugs— and is there something that we, as an internet community, can do to help you to get a plan to make things better for you on a more permanent basis, or a plan to help you get out?
Thank you for putting into words the difference between boundaries and ultimatums. My brain has become so muddled from having my feelings unacknowledged, told they are flat-out wrong…I have a very difficult time thinking straight. I couldn't begin to know what an internet community can do, other than what you have done—which I DEEPLY appreciate! Just to be heard is so empowering!
Oh pal. That muddled brain from unacknowledged feelings is so horrible. It took me more than a year out of my relationship that didn't acknowledge my feelings (every fight about how I didn't like something somehow turned into a fight about how I couldn't remember anything, or how I didn't really understand what he meant or believed, or how I was too sensitive) to recognize that it wasn't OK and I deserved better. I hope this gets better for you.
Too sensitive! Ha! Heard that one a lot.
"My brain has become so muddled from having my feelings unacknowledged, told they are flat-out wrong…I have a very difficult time thinking straight."
This, plus some things you said before, are adding up to me being concerned for you. A good long time ago, I spent some time in a relationship that contributed to me distrusting myself, and it was terrible for me. You don't know me from a hole in the ground, and you may not need or want all of this advice. But it sounds to me like you maybe need a friend in your court, like you might need a couple of concrete things you can do, like maybe you need someone to throw you a rope. So here are some things I would like to suggest. Take or leave this as you will, know that all of it is said with love, and hope, but not expectation or obligation.
If you do not feel safe, please be very careful. If you feel safe now, but that changes, please listen to your gut. If appropriate, talk to police, talk to a women's shelter, tell one of us you need to be hooked up with resources like that, do what you need to do. I do not (yet?) hear this sort of fear in what you've said, but I won't overlook the possibility. Stay safe first, always. Some of the things I suggest below WILL rock the boat. Depending on your BF, that can be dangerous. Don't let fear stop you from making your life better, but be smart about it.
If you can–
Stay in touch with your communities outside of your relationship. That can be us, or it can be Toastie Twitter, or your family, or old friends, or a knitting group, or folks at church. Just pick a group of people that make you feel important, make you feel loved, people that care about your thoughts and feelings, people that make you feel like YOU. The community you pick can help you sort things out— by talking it through, or just by being a rock for you, a place you can return to in order to feel like YOU. People in your life may try to prevent you from doing this if they think that this will mean they don't have as much control over you. Preventing you from accessing your community is controlling and abusive.
Start reading advice columns. Ask Bear. Dear Sugar. Captain Awkward. Not because it will all be applicable to you, and not because the advice is always going to be right for you. But because thinking about the sorts of problems other people face, without the personal baggage, may help turn that section of your brain back on, clear out some cobwebs. You'll find situations that feel very close to home. You may disagree with advice– if not in the columns, maybe in the comments. Good! Think critically about this stuff. It also might help you to read this recent piece from a Toastie , and/or the comments there.
Get a therapist or counselor. (this can be difficult, depending. but if you can, do.)
Start to examine your own life. Who is on Team You? What makes you feel heard? What do you want from life? What do you need to do to get there? This is big. This is scary. But it sounds like you've already decided that your current relationship isn't working for you. It sounds like you've already tried making changes to make it work, and you haven't gotten anywhere. If that's not exactly true, firm that up. Get to a place where you can confidently say if your relationship is meeting what you need. And if that's a no, decide if you want to get out immediately, and if not, if you want to try some more. If you do want to try, make it specific. Do you want to try for two more months? Or do you want to try one more therapist? Or one more book? Don't be wishywashy here. Trust yourself. Draw a line. Inform him or not, up to you. But make some sort of commitment to yourself, and absent concerns about your safety, honor that commitment to yourself.
Whenever you decide you're done, make a plan. Figure out where you'll live. Make a list of entangled accounts, or expenses, or belongings that will need to be dealt with. if you need to save up for a bit, do that. If you don't know how you'll make it work, go to the community you chose way up at the top. Or us, or a shelter. And then do it. It sounds like it will be the hardest and easiest thing you'll ever do, all at the same time.
Know that we hear you, we believe you, we trust you. We know that it's always a little bit different, but that many of us have been in situations that are achingly, sickening familiar, and we don't for a second think worse of you for what's going on.
Please take care of yourself.
Thank you. I do indeed have good outside support groups (like Al-Anon, Adult Children of Alcoholics, and Codependents Anon), as well as a therapist, and thankfully, a great job. I stopped going to these groups because I felt like I'd miss out on some affection if I tried to take care of myself. Stopped exercising very often. Stopped seeing friends. All because I felt like I had to be with him in case it was the moment he'd decide to listen to me, pay attention to me. But it is 90% me listening to him go on and on about how he's pissed about something, all about me cooking for him, rubbing his legs. I have to ASK for affection. And I am 90% of the time turned down. This really hurts my feelings and leads to HUGE fights which lead to me crying hysterically. He has ZERO empathy for me. While he has never been physically violent toward me or anyone in my presence, he has a history of it, and will often say he'd love to go punch this guy in the face, etc…At a restaurant a couple of weeks ago, he got annoyed over some bad service and started yelling at another customer, "Oh you think that's fuckin' funny huh?" I was so embarrassed I got in my car and left. He didn't even notice.
Just in the last week, I started taking care of myself again. Went back to my recovery groups, went back to my therapist, went out on long bike rides. In the relationship, I have determined to become non-reactive, just to let the dust settle and see how much of this is me being demanding and crazy (as he says), or him. It's not looking good for him. I have money saved up, I can find a place. The problem is that I have actually threatened this, and done it twice in the last six months, and he always cries (why does he only cry and treat me nice when I leave him and then promise to come back?), treats me lovingly and kind for about 2 hours, and then it's back to the usual. No affection, on the internet all the time (god help me if I ask him when he might be done, so we can do something together, or I can go do something on my own).
Thank you for letting me vent. I will re-read your advice over and over.
I will also recommend this book, related to the "why does he always cry" question – Why Does He Do That? By Lundy Bancroft. I read it to try to understand my father more but it is about many types of men and explains the thinking behind stuff like that.
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controllin …
I would suggest maybe picking up the book "Why Does He Do That?" and also reading up on "gaslighting"
thank you! Bought it on my Kindle just now!
So glad! I think this Captain Awkward column might be good reading too.
I don't know much about your relationship besides what you've written here, but I want you to know that a lot of what you said here sounds not ok to me. This isn't how all relationships are, this isn't how everyone treats their partner, this isn't how you can expect to be treated in the future, and this isn't as good as it gets. Sometimes being in the middle of these situations can affect what you think of as "normal," so I just wanted to make sure that was out there. Stay in touch with us, and keep us posted!
Great comment (of many) on that Captain Awkward post:
"Pro tip: if you are writing down everything that happens in order to prove to yourself objectively that your needs are reasonable you are mired deep within gaslight central and you need to flee as fast and as far as you can."
Which is so hysterically funny, hysterically as in lipstick smeared, mascara running, maniacal laughter, Oh Dear God what am i doing funny.
Which is exactly what I did late last night after he lost his temper over his son trying to coax the dog out of our room to take it for a walk. A task his father repeatedly reminds him about and berates him for not doing. I am in bed in a cami, so I can't really get up and help (being only partially clothed and his son being of voting age), so I say, "The dog's on the floor on your side." And he says to me, "I KNOW WHERE THE DOG IS, I'M NOT PLAYING THIS FUCKIN GAME!" And which point the dog finally goes out to get leashed and go for a walk, with the son who is respectfully trying not to come into his dad and girlfriends's bedroom. The dad turns over in a big huff. I am horrified. I put some clothes on, leave the room, and immediately write this down, because I know how fear and stress give me amnesia. I slept in the spare room for a few hours. I don't think he ever noticed I was gone!
This morning I ask him if he remembers about last night. Bottom line is, he blames his son and me for not dealing with it better. I was quite clear that losing his temper and speaking to me that way was humiliating and that he needed to apologize. Ha ha ha…wishful thinking. I told him his behavior towards me and his son, and other people he lashes out at was disgusting and I wasn't putting up with it anymore. Then I left for work. Turned off my phone. Not sure what I'm going to do now.
I just don't want his barrage of texts accusing me of being in the wrong, justifying his behavior.
Maybe fear and stress don't give you amnesia, maybe it's living with someone who consistently tells you reality is other than it is that causes you to doubt your lived experiences and reality?
Update: after the latest round of abuse, I left with an overnight bag. I have a good friend I can stay with.for a few weeks. Time to figure out where to live and get my stuff. I pretty much stopped highlighting sections of that book, because the whole book was going to end up highlighted.
Good for you! That was really brave, and I'm praying for you! If you happen to be in Michiana, I can put you in touch with people at the women's shelters. Please remember that you are wonderful and important and immeasurably valuable.
Wow, I'm so proud of you. Good luck as you build your new life without this jerk in it. Keep in touch and let us know how you're doing, please!
Just read this thread and I am so, so proud of everyone in it. Toasties, you all are the best bunch of people on earth. Tarragoner, I'm thinking of you and rooting for you! You do what you have to in order to take care of yourself. Come by and chat anytime, ok? A lot of us are on Twitter too (check out https://twitter.com/embryoconcepts/lists/toasties … ) if you want to chat. Be good to yourself. <3
So, so very proud of you.
Let us know if there is anything we can do to help you out.
This is so great, you're the bravest and I hope for all the good things for you!
If you or any other Toastie needs it, (massive trigger warning on this link) here is a Captain Awkward column about escaping an abusive situation , with much additional wisdom in the comments. Stay safe, stay in touch, and good luck in your future in a small quiet room of your own.
Having observed this comment thread yesterday and come back to it to find this, I just want you to know that you are strong and brave and even though I do not know you at all, I want good things for you!!
You are amazing! You can get through this and start the amazing life you deserve. Please know you are in our thoughts, and reach out if you ever needs encouragement or some levity. I've been in a similar situation, and while it was tough, the end result is so so so worth it.
I made it back to his house to get the bulk of my things out. I am kind of reeling now. Depression, emotional exhaustion. That feeling of "I'm about to start sobbing, but I'm at work, so keep it inside."
He said I was so cold for breaking up with him by text. And I keep thinking of all the times in the last 8 months that he left me crying on the floor in the midst of the horrible fights we had, begging him to hear me and stop being sarcastic. I remind myself that this entire relationship has been like walking on eggshells from very early on. But I swallowed the fantasy that he was just having a hard time after being hurt in a previous relationship. Once he saw how I wasn't like earlier relationships, he'd open up and be sweet, compassionate, patient. Shed his self-protective, angry exterior.
Do you remember what it was like in 5th grade when boys showed you they liked you by making you think everything you said was stupid? Or just ignoring you? I am still scratching my head over how he would talk and talk about himself, never ask me anything, and when I'd start to say something, he'd just wander off or change the subject. Once, I came back from walking his dog at his request, I came inside and he didn't look up, didn't say anything, so I cheerfully said, "I'm back!" And he snaps back at me from his easy chair, "You don't have to demand my attention."
I'm sorry, that sounds terrible for you. Jedi hugs for you, Tarragoner. I'm glad you got out of that place, and created room in your life for people who will take you and your feelings seriously, because you deserve that. You've got a community of internet strangers rooting for you, and being proud of you.
Yikes, that all sounds incredibly exhausting. I'm so glad you're out of there. Here's some additional reading if the "wait, I'm not crazy?!" type for you: Shutting Off the Gaslight.
Hi. I would love to read, but the link is wonky…can you re-post, or tell me where it's at? Thanks!!
Crap, it looked right when I typed it up but it posted with the link back to this page. Weirddddd. Anyway here's the link: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/08/shutting-off-g …
Please know that we're here for you. Your story sounds familiar to experiences I have had, and you'll be in my thoughts.
If you're the hugging kind, I would offer you a big hug. If you're not the hugging kind, I just want you to know that you are heard and you are believed and that you should never have feel wrong for wanting love and kindness from your partner.
I am so glad you are working at taking care of yourself in really great ways!!!!
Again– just a little bit of loving pushback– I don't *really* think you're a significant problem in this dynamic, but even if you were, that would not be a good reason to stay. Even if he were the nicest, most patient, most affectionate person on the face of the earth, you have still managed to have unmet needs. And even if that was ALL on you, even if you had significant mental illness, even if it was ALL YOU dragging down the relationship…. You're still unhappy, and the dynamic still isn't getting better. So, I mean, sure, you probably have some things you can do to work on yourself, to make yourself a better person and partner—– because we all have those things. But it is enough reason to leave that you're not happy. It is enough reason to leave that — regardless of exact share of blame, regardless of who started it — the dynamic between the two of you isn't working. You're not obligated to try every possible thing to save this relationship before you leave. You don't have to wait until he finally does the one last thing that puts it over the edge. You don't have to wait until you're convinced of exactly who gets each drop of blame. You *can* wait, if you need to. To get your ducks in a row, to make sure you know where you'll land, if you're waiting for YOU. But please don't feel like you owe someone else that time, that you ought to wait, that you're supposed to. Wanting to leave is enough reason to leave.
You don't have to do it for your friends, or your therapist, or us. You just need to trust yourself, and make change by change that's better for you. (AND you've already started!!! Go you!!!) I mean, read my words over and over if it's helpful, but honestly, read YOUR words over and over!!! When I now read the things I wrote when in an abusive relationship, I absolutely knew– on some level– that things were bad, that I was miserable, that I needed to get out. But it didn't make it through to the action centers of my brain for a very long time. You said "I can't change him and I can't stand it anymore." Trust yourself, believe yourself. We trust you, we believe you— so if you can't quite believe yourself yet, try believing us.
Thank you. I read most of that book last night and it really helped. I’m not crazy, I was trying to work on the relationship, I just had no idea I was trying to work on a relationship with someone who was more interested in control! It makes so much sense now. I have a long reply above, under a comment from ethylbenzene that describes what happened last night and this morning.
The worst thing about toxic people/abusers is that they know that other people want to make relationships work. They know that and understand how to pretend to put in emotional work, so they can manipulate the people around them into doing all of the actual work. Then they use tears and buzzwords in an emergency, when the people around them finally start to see through the act.
Yep. That was pretty much it! I was the one who committed to going back to counseling and recovery groups, not him. Although that kind of backfired on him…I got a backbone and he didn't like it at all. Then at the end he uses the "you're being rash, after all the relationship work we've done" line on me—I did not respond.
Good for you! I'm glad that all the relationship work was at least good for your relationship with yourself.
In case you are new to The Toast, we're here to listen (and encourage, and advise when needed). Not only am I hearing you, but I would like to state unequivocally that YOUR FEELINGS ARE VALID and IT IS OK TO HAVE THEM. And that anyone who tells you otherwise isn't treating you very well, and it's also ok to ask people to treat you better.
Thank you!
Just read this thread and wanted to share my Good Thoughts for you.
I am amazed how much my life has changed in a few days just by reading this Advice Column and commenting about the use of offensive language. I didn't know I was in such a state of denial. There I was thinking it was ok to be told I was too sensitive when I brought up things with my BF that offended me! I was so certain I needed to keep working on it, and they needed to keep stepping on my feelings so I could be tested!
<img src=" http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-06/16/14/enhanced/webdr08/anigif_enhanced-buzz-14848-1402942621-13.gif"> ;
<3<3<3, Your thoughts and feelings matter. They matter because they're yours, and, yeah, sometimes they're going to be rational and sometimes not so much, but people who care about you deeply will care that you feel hurt, EVEN if they think that you're "too sensitive".
Like, for example, imagine you HATED the word "green". No particular reason, you just couldn't stand to hear the word out loud. Now, that's probably weird and irrational, and something you'd want to work on and get over. But it would still be hurtful for you to hear it. Now, a partner of yours might be happy to use some other word, of avoid the topic altogether. Or the partner might talk to you and discuss a strategy to help you get over your discomfort with that in a slow and purposeful way. Or the partner might say "look, I'm a landscaper, my company name is "Green Thumbs Inc". Using the word "green" is important to me, and it's difficult for you, and I don't think this is going to work because I don't want to hurt you". All of those things would be okay, and loving ways to handle it. But the Dude who says, "whatever, you're crazy, I'm going to use the word 'green' whenever and however I want to regardless of how it affects you"………. is not the right person to be in a relationship with.
And that's an example where the underlying thing (not liking the word "green") is a frankly absurd thing, on purpose. But we all have weird things our partners don't share. The one thing in the house we want to be spotless, even if the rest of the house is a mess. The weird noise we hate, the food we can't stand, the completely irrational dislike of SOMETHING, (or the dislike is rational, but the degree to which it's disliked is not rational). Everyone's got something, and how we negotiate those things with partners is SO TELLING. Are we on our own? Are we in partnership about how to deal with it? Is it a constant friction point? How do we talk about it? It's not that there are right answers, and no one gets all of these things right all the time. But do we communicate with love or hostility?
I hope that as you move forward, you add more and more people who care about YOU, who care about your feelings (even when they're silly or irrational), who help you to be your best self. I hope you keep in touch with us. I hope that when you look for affection, you get it.
I know a few people who still use "retard/retarded," and because my job is transportation-related, I hear "transportation" sometimes abbreviated to "tranny" … so I've started calling them out gently. "Can you please not use that word?" "Hey, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop using that word." Ad infinitum. Until it is your catchphrase. Until you open your mouth to ask your BF if he's finished with dinner and he interrupts with "yeah yeah, don't say bitch, got it." (Then you can have a separate conversation with him about being irritating.) I work with SO. MANY. BROS. and in my experience, they roll their eyes the first couple times, and then when they keep hearing you say the same thing over and over, they will either just stop, or they'll ask you why you care – which I think is even better because you can educate them and remind them that words really do have meaning, and other people can be hurt by careless words.
Hopefully the fact that the request is coming from someone your BF cares deeply about (you!) will make this a lot easier, but seriously: repetition helps.
How do men get to be BROS? I've been rather shielded from this demographic (on purpose) and I am stunned! The disrespect is horrific.
I'm a psychologist and I just realised that I have an entire book of handwritten research notes on children at Piaget's Preoperational stage of cognitive development which refers to them as "preop kids". I'm kind of mortified, but at the same time Preoperational is a really long word to hand write repeatedly.
I've responded to peoples saying "pussy" with "Can we not use that word." in about 130% normal volume, and it worked. (The first time, someone said, "What do you prefer, 'vagina'?" and I said, "I prefer that part of my body not be used as an insult." and that pretty much shut them up.)
*spirit fingers*
Very good! I will have to remember that one!
But hopefully I'll now be in a much nicer environment. No longer surrounded by raging misanthropy, verbal abuse, TV/internet violence and neglect.
I am just reading this thread now and wanted to say "Go you!" Please let us know what we can do for you.
I'm old. What does 'queer' mean in the following: "I’m unsure if he identifies as queer (I’m a queer cis woman)"? I would have thought 'queer' and 'cis' to be mutually exclusive, but the letter writer clearly does not. Thanks.
Cis is conventionally used to indicate gender identity. Queer conventionally refers to sexual attraction.
thank you for the explanation, I wasn't entirely clear on how to read that either!
Gotcha, thanks.
To elaborate on what Alli525 said, queer can refer to gender identity OR sexual orientation (or both at once), so the LW was disambiguating. Straight trans people can be queer and so can cis gay or bisexual people but theyre pretty different identities with different contexts.
ETA: queer is also a political label, so there are some gay/bi/trans folks who explicitly do not identify as queer because they are at odds with radical queer theory, and charlie is acting in a way that one would hope a politically queer person would know to avoid. Although that's not always true in practice.
While Alli525 is 100% correct, I'll expand things a little bit:
There are some people who will push the definition of "queer" out. Primarily it's sexual attraction (gay/bi), but it can also be lack of sexual attraction (asexuality, demisexuality), more nuanced sexuality (pansexuality, sapiosexuality), people with complicated gender identities, some of which identify as cis, some of which don't (ie, someone might identify as "genderqueer" and feel that "cis" is more accurate than "trans"). Some people even expand it to mean people who are non-monogamous or kinky.
And, of course, as with labels generally, what counts or doesn't is often fiercely contested, especially in cases where straight cis people ID as queer because they're kinky or poly. I am NOT trying to take a position here on what the definition OUGHT to be here, I'm just trying to describe a bunch of people that might self identify as "queer".
So, "queer" can turn into a sort of umbrella term, especially if we're talking about not being sure how someone else identifies, and is sometimes used instead of LGBT, or other similar acronyms.
THE AGE-OLD QUESTION – how to fight misogyny without getting written off as "humorless"
I suggest that we start a movement – the "misogyny flag" . Throw an object loudly. If you don't have an object, throw your own hand at the table so it makes a loud slap. When they look at you, point to the object/your hand and say, deadpan, "That's the misogyny flag. I'm throwing it."
Then, whenever they offend again, throw the flag.
Their sports-driven brains can understand throwing a flag on a play. This will appeal to their competitive sides. The loud noise, repeatedly, will make them aware of how often they say offensive stuff. And if they're unaware that what they're saying is offensive, they can say, "Wait, why was that flag thrown?"
Meanwhile, you're not arguing with them or making them feel attacked or judged (their brains will likely shut down the moment they feel attacked or judged, which is to say, the moment critical words come out of your mouth). You're just making flag-throwing noises. And when they start to get sick of the noises, maybe that will give them a framework for understanding how sick you are of their misogyny.
I LOVE THIS. Can we all agree that they have to be bright pink?
I hope that LW #1 sees this:
I just finished my master's in math from a private, well-known university. I didn't experience any overt sexism in the math department at my lovely, small, private liberal-arts college, but grad school was HORRIBLE. So if you're planning on going to graduate school, you truly and honestly need to visit the actual campuses of any programs you apply to and get any girls/non-binary people alone and ask them some serious questions about how they are treated there. Check to see how many female faculty / faculty of color / non-binary faculty there are. Math grad programs especially are full of guys in their 30s who won't take you seriously because of how young you are (it has been my experience that women mathematicians go to grad school almost immediately after undergrad, whereas men wait around a while longer) and because of your gender.
I was told that I only got my full ride because the department needed more girls, I was laughed at for my career goals, men have been blatantly cruel and have gone out of their way to embarrass me publicly, I endured sexist language like you are currently having to endure. Even men who didn't treat me horribly thought I should be "less sensitive." Consider this math research program as a way to get a taste of how many men will treat you if you go to graduate school for math, unless you choose your program very carefully. I didn't visit any of the campuses, and I paid dearly for it.
In the program I just left, there are three women students now. Two of them are going to leave the Ph.D. program after they finish their master's, and one is sticking it out (despite being unhappy) because she really wants to work with one specific professor. All of us complained about the way we were treated, and no one listened. In fact, the head of the department didn't even file our complaints with the Title IX office until we hijacked a department-wide presentation to complain. This same department head didn't even tell the only tenured woman professor about our complaints (she was on sabbatical during the first round of the complaints, but was there and FURIOUS when we took over the presentation).
If you're not planning on going to grad school, then this advice / these warnings are irrelevant, but I wanted to let you know just in case. I don't want anything to happen to you or your love of mathematics. My own love of mathematics was soured by how I was treated by other people who loved math.
I am so sorry that happened to you.
This is more than just math department. It's entire schools and science divisions. My female professors encouraged me to learn to put up with bad behavior from their male colleagues.
I left because I was mad as hell and couldn't take it anymore. I hope LW doesn't find herself in a similar situation but I'm always glad for multiple voices saying that it's okay to get out.
Oh, of course! I wasn't trying to belittle the horrific experiences that women have in other science fields and other schools.
And I didn't mean that part to be critical! What we both experienced is still way too common in all of academia, but in the maths and sciences there's a particular sourness to having to share those "male" fields. I know too many people who are willing to put up with terrible colleagues to keep their jobs. And, I always want to help people feel better about walking away from such hostile environments.
LW1: The math department at Smith spends a great deal of time, energy, and thought trying to make sure that the students who are interested in grad school are matched up with departments and graduate adviser who try to help people avoid programs like the one raisedeyebrow ended up in (speaking generally here, I don't know which program she was in). Even with a VERY specific focus, sometimes things don't work out. One friend started a PhD program in math only to switch to Econ fairly early on because of the toxic environment. the above is all very good advice.
raisedeyebrow: UGGGGGGGHHHHHHH UGGGGGH GROSS. jedi hugs.
I think a lot of the cis het guys I know would hate that kind of environment as well. The PhD's in my family say it's really important to check out whether the department you'd be in is a happy place, in general.
Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry they did that to you! I am planning on switching to public health for grad school, which seems to be way less male-dominated, and I went through a lot of anxiety about being one of the girls who dropped out of math. And I think I am going to miss it. But my word. I don't think I could handle what you've described.
P.S. For anyone looking for math grad schools, I'm at Notre Dame and while I'm an undergrad and obviously don't have a good picture of what grad school is like, I've never heard professors or grad students here being sexist.
Thank you. Every time I meet a woman or a non-binary person who wants to study math at the graduate level, I always try to warn them.
ETA: This was meant to be a reply to ginkgotree.
Thank you for the advice, Aunt Acid! The REU is over but I'm sure I will encounter plenty more dudebros over the course of my life, and I will keep this advice in mind!