Permission To Play Devil’s Advocate Denied
Dear Applicant,
Thank you for submitting your recent inquiry. According to our records, on September 27th, you interrupted a conversation with your request: “Look, if I could just play devil’s advocate for a second here…”
It’s with very real regret that we must inform you that your petition to play devil’s advocate has been denied. Thank you for your interest in the devil’s advocate position; we realize that this is disappointing and would like to assure you that your candidacy was considered very carefully. As you know, we receive an overwhelming number of requests to play devil’s advocate every day, and while we would like to accommodate them all, we simply don’t have the resources to do so.
We appreciate the effort and thought that went into your request to play devil’s advocate. Please know that your candidacy received serious, thorough consideration. For this reason, we will be unable to consider any appeals to our decision.
Our records indicate that you have requested to play devil’s advocate for either “just a second here” or “just a minute here” over fourteen times in the last financial quarter. While we appreciate your enthusiasm, priority must be given to those who have not yet played the position. We would like to commend you for the excellent work you have done in the past year arguing for positions you have no real interest or stake in promoting, including:
- Affirmative Action: Who’s the Real Minority Here?
- Maybe Men Score Better In Math For A Reason
- Well, They Don’t Have To Live Here
- I Think You’re Taking This Too Personally
- Would It Be So Bad If They Did Die?
- If You Could Just Try To See It Objectively, Like Me
It is our hope that future holders of the devil’s advocate position will be able to carry on your legacy: smiling as they argue for positions they only half-believe themselves with people who are attempting to discuss something sincerely and in good faith.
We wish you the best of luck in your ensuing conversation and have every confidence in your ability to find something to talk about. We now consider this matter closed.
All best,
Devil’s Advocacy Group
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Mallory, may I play Devil's Advocate for a moment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D44YUfi92ls
Allow me to also play Devil's Advocate for just a couple minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGR4SFOimlk
UGHHHHHHH experienced "Well, They Don’t Have To Live Here" LITERALLY for real on Facebook in a discussion about how the UK is considering forcing women to not be able to wear niqab in public and I was like, are you seriously suggesting English Muslim women should leave their home country rather than have their religious freedom respected according to existing laws?
I mean it's a complex issue in some ways (the factor of whether the woman herself is actually choosing it) but yeahhhhhhhhhh shipping off every niqab wearing lady is not a solution.
True, though in a country that doesn't have sharia law, there's a pretty good chance they're wearing them by choice.
And if they're being forced to wear it because of family pressure/abuse/etc., you address it the same way you address anything that women are forced to do in those situations – provide resources and support for those who want to change their situations and make the forcing illegal, not the result.
Exactly!
I've seen enough Muslimah bloggers stating they want to wear niqab, and they lived places like the UK or US, to believe it's definitely a choice in some cases. Nice thing about living in the West is they have the legal option of giving it up if they want to, and plenty of Islamophobes happy to shelter them if their families harass them for it.
It's not complex at all. If the problem were that they were afraid women were forced to wear it, then they would pass a law against women being forced to wear a naqib. Not a law against wearing naqibs, altogether.
I LOVE THIS SO MUCH, MALLORY. SO SO MUCH. I'm actually slightly giddy with excitement right now over how good this is. I'm gonna print this out and hand it to anyone who tries to play devil's advocate with me from now on. This is PERFECTION.
When people play Devil's Advocate with me, I like to turn the game into Turn Around and Walk Away Because Ain't Nobody Got Time for That.
"If You Could Just Try To See It Objectively, Like Me"
AHHHHH
I'm sorry that I'm taking an issue that I have experienced or closely sympathize with seriously, as opposed to treating it as a Fun Abstract Intellectual Exercise Where I Have No Stake in the Game, asshole.
…
I mean, yes, I sympathize with this post.
SERIOUSLY. See also: "Maybe You're Just Too Close to the Situation" and "I Don't See Why We Need to Bring [Crucial Aspect Of Discussion That I, Personally, Don't Want to Discuss] Into This."
What really makes that last one particularly fantastic is when the "Crucial Aspect Of Discussion That I, Personally, Don't Want to Discuss" happens to be "Historical Context/General Awareness of Systematic Inequality (and My Unwitting Participation Thereof.)"
Totally. Also, "Why Do You Always Make Everything About [Race/Gender/Class/other pervasive force perpetuating inequality]"
also known as, I Am Used To Everything Being Always About White Dudes Like Me Let's Just Keep Doing That
Because I Possess Neither Race Nor Gender, And Am Therefore The Only Unbiased One In This Discussion
Holy crap. This exact phrasing is now going into my bag of argument refutations for future discussions. It's so simple, but I've never seen it stated in quite this way.
Don't forget "No No No, You're Overthinking This."
tl;dr; I'm emotionally attached to my position, therefore you shouldn't argue with me.
This is going to be quite disappointing for libertarians, coming right after your tips for them yesterday. So many were all pumped to play, on this the second day of our government shutdown.
where's that gif of the entire theater full of people applauding
May I also propose: "let's not let political correctness get in the way of the real issues here".
UGH YES. It's not "political correctness," it's actually just "not being an asshole."
No kidding. The moment I hear "political corectnness" sincerely come out of someones mouth, I immediately think "asshole."
Right? The only people who have to consciously try to be politically correct are the ones who are racist/sexist/classist/etc.
We have received notice that you have attempted to obtain a license to cover your previous remarks on "Women Are Bitches Who Would Never Date Me." Unfortunately, the position cannot be granted retroactively, and also was never at any point intended to deal with spontaneous offensive statements unprompted by any stated argument. We regret that we cannot annul the current anger on the part of your interlocutor.
The No Offense clause?
The applicant cited the little-known I Was Just Testing Your Belief System; It Shows You I Care About What You Think provision.
Your attempt to reapply for the license to cover near identical remarks under the edited title "I guess women don't go for me because I'm just too much of a Nice Guy" has also been denied, because come on man, who do you think you're fooling, really.
This is just (amusing) bullshit – especially the comments. Whereas Devil's Advocate can be used to express a PC, bigoted, etc position, this is not usually the case. In my experience, it is used by one party in a decision making process where everyone agrees. That party plays the Devil's Advocate to expose their otherwise unanimous decision to counter-arguments thereby ensuring that it is more likely to be correct. These comments reflect a very narrow view of the term.
LOL a devil's advocate argument regarding the use of the term devil's advocate. This is way too meta.
"But wait! Haven't you considered the fact that I almost never hear devil's advocate arguments used in the context you're describing, but in this completely benign and constructive context? I almost never experience devil's advocate arguments as you're describing them, so this whole thing must be bullshit."
Let me play Devil's Advocate here and just point out that the fact that so many people have found this amusing and relevant may actually contradict your assertion that the scenario satirized above is, in fact, "bullshit."
Ugh, ok, I have a lot of feelings about devil's advocate bullshit. It's so cowardly – a way of expressing an unpopular, so-called "politically incorrect" position without really owning it; arguing for something that you know deep down is some bigoted, mean-spirited nonsense but which you also kind of believe without admitting you believe it. And somehow simultaneously you manage to make yourself look brave for taking on the "unpopular" belief, for "daring" to say those things, as well as positioning yourself as some kind of masterfully rational, objective debater who's obviously superior because they can argue both sides of the debate. "Oh, but I'm just trying to HELP you refine your argument! I don't REALLY believe those things! I've just decided to appoint myself your debate coach and professor because obviously that is my right as a Rational Being!"
How nice for you that you can approach misogyny, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc. with such detachment. How nice for you that you can deal with those things as if they don't affect your day to day reality, as if they don't hurt you in real, tangible, painful ways, as if they aren't personal. The rest of us cannot be objective or detached because it is personal and it does hurt, and you have the temerity to suggest that this makes our arguments weaker and means you can patronize and dismiss us. Fuck that shit.
TESTIFY
The issue can be compounded by those being genuinely popular (ist) beliefs, which is… worse.
That is so much worse, because then you want to clap the asshole on the back and go "ohh, you're being so brave " buddy, repeating lines of thought that have been perpetuated by an oppresive majority for decades."
Right, hence my quotation marks around "unpopular." It amazes me how people like this buy wholesale into the idea that what they're saying is so edgy and incendiary, and it's just like, dude, you're spouting the same old shit our society has imprinted in all of us for centuries. You don't need to bring this up again to help me "strengthen my argument," because I have heard it all before a million different times in a million different ways. It took so many years of struggle to even get to the point where enough people were talking about these issues that "political correctness" as a concept emerged in the first place. So tell me again what a brave little soldier you are…
YES THIS
Yeah it's funny how you never hear someone playing devil's advocate in the other direction. Like, "But hey, Ted, imagine if maybe Obamacare *wasn't* the worst thing that ever happened to the human race? I mean obviously it is but I'm just saying…"
nooooooooooooooope
Where do I apply to have the words "devil's advocate" stricken from the entire internet?
Sending this to the male members of my family with a passive-aggressive emoticon, immediately.
My dad, while a wonderful person most of the time, loves to play Devil's Advocate, especially when my mom or I are upset about something. I usually respond by becoming blind with rage, but now I can just print this out and hand it to him!
I have bookmarked this next to the GIF of the pigeon eating popcorn and Ann Friedman's signature "Cruella De Ville laughing and kicking her heels" for use in many future internet "debates."
Pigeon: http://cdn.arwrath.com/9/99049.gif
Cruella: http://25.media.tumblr.com/0709d5c7439aa0a7bf4d8e …
Hahahaha. That pigeon knows what's up.
May I also suggest the Come At Me Bro Khal Drogo gif: http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk218/Archamme …
Come At Me Dro is the _best_ response to a Devil's Advocasshole.
Can I also suggest this gif for when an attempted rhetorical coup falls flat: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/191olm57j3m8qgif/ …
I'll admit, I can't stop watching it today.
I love the reactions of the middle guy in the suit and the x vest guy on the left.
THANK you for pointing that out because those two dudes are delightful.
Also, sorry if I appear to be following you around the Toast today, it's not intentional!
{or IS it???? mwah ha ha}
I love how Left Dude throws his head back, and Middle Dude is all, "aww, isn't that cute?"
I don't mind if you follow me, but you have to give me a cookie.
that actually happened to me once on a dance floor :/
If I might also make a suggestion, Come At Me Dro makes a nice matching set with Deal With It Danaerys: http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/daenery …
PERFECTION. My lil queen burnin' shit down, I love her so!
That is fantastic.
Apparently I'm full of passive-aggressive rage today. Cheers, everyone!
never change, my (rk)firecracker!
I really don't understand the point the rhetorical conceit in this article. I understand what she's trying to say: Some people abuse the 'devils' advocate' position to simply spout a contrary or unpopular opinion. But why not just say that?
And to that end, what exactly are do you want to say about that other than that you're annoyed? Is it the phrase that bothers you, or the fact that people use it in a dishonest way?
The way it's written just makes it sound like you don't like dealing with dissenting opinions. Oh well, at least it probably felt good to write. So sassy!
This is the first article I've ever read on The Toast; not sure if I'll be coming back.
Yeah but have any of you guys considered the possibility that maybe this article actually wasn't that good?
devil's avocado here, larry
AAAHH DEVIL'S ADVOCATE
Permission to print out this article, fold it into an origami swan, and sail it gracefully into the quivering meaty mouth of whoever sayeth this phrase during an otherwise intelligent conversation about Real Life Stuff?
Oh, MAN, do I have an ex-boyfriend who desperately needs to linked to this.
When I do it, it's called " angel's advocate"
Please fit this sentiment on a business card somehow and sell said cards to me immediately.
The thing to remember when "playing Devil's Advocate" is that YOU are actually advocating THE DEVIL. That guy who is evil as fuck, you know? Maybe he shouldn't have an advocate. And if he needs to, it doesn't need to be you. Unless you WANT. Then you're actually just an asshole.
It's just an expression that means to argue for the unpopular position, it doesn't literally mean that you're arguing for the devil.
Haha! Brilliant.
My dad's response to that is still the best, "What in the hell makes you think the Devil needs an advocate? Where *do* you think all the lawyers go when they die?"
Pop's got flair.
The math one is interesting. At least when I was in elementary and high school, it was generally the GIRLS who got higher marks. I couldn't understand math at all. I never did get a convincing argument for why 2+2=4, and I asked for nearly fifteen years.